I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

Game No : 3272946676
***** Hand History for Game 3272946676 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18664529 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, December 28, 00:51:23 EDT 2005
Table Table 68111 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: elcheapo23 ( $1617 )
Seat 3: hueys46 ( $4540 )
Seat 5: wnlake5 ( $930 )
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck ( $913 )
Trny:18664529 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to elcheapo23 [ Kh 3d ]
>You have options at Table 66918 Table!.
hueys46 folds.
wnlake5 folds.
Scuba_Chuck is all-In [813]
elcheapo23 calls [713].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9d, Jd, Th ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
Scuba_Chuck shows [ Ts, Td ] a full house, Tens full of jacks.
elcheapo23 shows [ Kh, 3d ] a pair of jacks.
Scuba_Chuck wins 1826 chips from the main pot with a full house, Tens full of jacks.
>You have options at Table 66918 Table!.
Game #3272948674 starts.

713 to win 1826 and scuba needs to push here. This is a nobrainer and yet he berates me for this call.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

[ QUOTE ]

713 to win 1826 and scuba needs to push here. This is a nobrainer and yet he berates me for this call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, take the 713 back out of that 1826. You're being laid 1113:713, which isn't nearly as attractive. Add in the other severe shorty, and I'm pretty sure your crappy K isn't going to perform well enough to make calling here good. So I think this is poor.

EDIT: I'll preempt curtains and point out that this is an SNGPT question if there ever was one. If you don't have it, this isn't a very tough situation to ICM, but I'm lazy and tend to answer based on my intuitions from the time when I actually looked at these kind of things. Serious pushbot minutia aren't so important in regular Stars STT's, at least at low buyins.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

I call this in a flash.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

EZ fold. Fishy call.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

[ QUOTE ]
713 to win 1826 and scuba needs to push here. This is a nobrainer and yet he berates me for this call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except it's not 713 to win 1826. It's 1113 in the pot, 713 to call. You're kinda calculating winning your 'calling' chips back into the equation. You're getting 1.56:1 here, not 1826:713 as you seem to be implying.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

If I fold I'm still midlevel stack. If shortstack had 500 or 600 then the fold would be easier but I think this is the right call because if I'm in scuba's shoes you don't even look at your cards and push

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

Based on what? What a joke.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

I actually see 713 to win 1113 (you cant count the money you havent put in the middle yet) I don't like the call. While he's probably pushing with a very wide range, K3o is defintiely behind.

ICM says : If he's pushing as many as 75% of hands, its still -EV to call with K3o.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

what if its 90%

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

LOOKS LIKE I AM 2 MINUTES TOO LATE.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

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Based on what? What a joke.

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Easy there GtrHtr. I think I'd fold, but calling is hardly ridiculous. After all, against many players, K high is likely the better hand. And you're getting decent odds.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

If he is infact pushing 90% of hands, its slighty +EV to make the call. But its still something i will not be doing.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

If you know he is pushing any 2 you should be calling around top 50%.

Of course, if he knows you think he will push any 2 and will call with top 50%, he should only push about the top 30%.

The difference between pushing any 2 and pushing top 30% is the reason you should never let a 2+2er know you are one.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

haha, ur right, dude just gets under my skin. EZ fold tho

Follow up
 

I say he pushes any two and even at top 75% its marginally bad. I've folded my blind more than my share this game and scuba knows pushbot I'd assume so this is at worst a below average call.

Re: Follow up
 

Dude, you are (were) 2d stack. Horrible call.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

[ QUOTE ]
Based on what? What a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Instead of doing the math myself, I took his word for what the ratio was. I was way wrong apparently. Whoops.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

good man, gl in miami, sorry to be so harsh.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

thats alot of assumptions for a pretty dire situation and he may not know I'm a 2+2er before this hand

Re: Follow up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you are (were) 2d stack. Horrible call.

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Scuba's range is any two. Calling an any 2 range with K3o is +1.1% $EV. Still horrible?

Re: Follow up
 

I had 16 and 2 other stacks had around 10. If I had 2k or they had less then I would fold. i thought the percentages were on my side and I was maybe marginally wrong.

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

[ QUOTE ]
good man, gl in miami, sorry to be so harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]

please. i've had citanul rip into me before. i even insulted SNCB knowing his cronies would do their damndest to chase me out of town and make my life a living hell. I can handle harsh. Especially on the internet, where I don't have to back up my words with my 150 pound rail for a body.

Re: Follow up
 

DELETED - MISREAD THE HH. I suggested calling if the BB was the other shortstack, which I still beleive is clearly correct.

Re: Follow up
 

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Dude, you are (were) 2d stack. Horrible call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scuba's range is any two. Calling an any 2 range with K3o is +1.1% $EV. Still horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

for sure horrible call. If he had 4000 chips easy call. Are you serious?

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

My math was right- just probably different then what you use. I include the final pot

Re: Follow up
 

I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

Re: Follow up
 

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Its a pretty easy call IMO against most decent players. To be honest I would never dream of folding in this spot in a $215. People who can't make ugly looking calls like this are going to have problems winning at sit and gos.

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ugh. i need to get better at SNGs.

Re: Follow up
 

i think i fold here, but call with Ax and most pockets 44+ this is from my first instinct, will check numbers later ....is this bad?

Re: I think this is right but scuba disagrees
 

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[ QUOTE ]
good man, gl in miami, sorry to be so harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]

please. i've had citanul rip into me before. i even insulted SNCB knowing his cronies would do their damndest to chase me out of town and make my life a living hell. I can handle harsh. Especially on the internet, where I don't have to back up my words with my 150 pound rail for a body.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, I'm starting to like you.

Re: Follow up
 

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Its a pretty easy call IMO against most decent players. To be honest I would never dream of folding in this spot in a $215. People who can't make ugly looking calls like this are going to have problems winning at sit and gos.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh. i need to get better at SNGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read my follow up post. I misread the HH.

Re: Follow up
 

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I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

HOORAY. I thought i had to relearn everything about SNGs. My stupid 324923 buyin downswing is making me read too much into everything.

Re: Follow up
 

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Its a pretty easy call IMO against most decent players. To be honest I would never dream of folding in this spot in a $215. People who can't make ugly looking calls like this are going to have problems winning at sit and gos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the equilibrium here is something like 61%/31%, so I guess by a "decent" player you mean someone who will push more than is game-theory optimal because he expects BB to fold too much?

Re: Follow up
 

so this is a call with 2 paints, Ax or any pair?? If the stacks were reversed I call pretty quickly too.

Re: Follow up
 

Ok time to delete my ORIGINAL POST

Re: Follow up
 

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I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats good since I originally quoted you in my last reply. Didn't want to put words in your mouth though.

Re: Follow up
 

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Ok time to delete my ORIGINAL POST

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sry, you posted follow-up while I was writing my post. folding as the other short stack would be silly.

Re: Follow up
 

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Please read my follow up post. I misread the HH.

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All over it. I'm a whole step ahead (or behind) you.

Re: Follow up
 

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I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should SB be tighter? What calling range are you assuming Scuba will put BB on?

Re: Follow up
 

wtf is scuba doing berating bad players!?!!?

Re: Follow up
 

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I take back everything I said btw...I thought the hero was the other short stack.. Now I have to reexamine. I believe I'd lean towards folding now, as SB should be tighter in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should SB be tighter? What calling range are you assuming Scuba will put BB on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cos of the other short stack.

I am thinking Scuba would put BB on a 32-38%ish calling range if BB seems decent.