Its crap like this
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Re: Its crap like this
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 (poster) folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls.

River: (7.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

Re: Its crap like this
 

Crap like...what?
getting them to raise on 4th street with the worst hand?
don't you think that is being a little results oriented?

Re: Its crap like this
 

Actually he had the nut on the turn.

Re: Its crap like this
 

You played both these hands pretty badly with no reads, especially the second hand, that is a suck suck sucky way to play a set heads-up.

Often your opponent will just check behind on the turn, or fold to your turn check-raise. Check-raise or bet the flop and take it from there. Or check-call the flop and bet the turn, but don't check-call, check-raise.

Re: Its crap like this
 

[ QUOTE ]
Often your opponent will just check behind on the turn, or fold to your turn check-raise. Check-raise or bet the flop and take it from there. Or check-call the flop and bet the turn, but don't check-call, check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curious, do you say this because Slowplaying Is Dead? Or because the opponent may check behind with ace-high? Or because it shows so much strength?

Personally I check-raise in spots like this all the time. If you bet out after calling, passive players think "he's got two pair! Just call!" And they call you down.

If you checkraise their aces, they still call you down.

Against a passive player who's just going to call you down (and I see these a lot), I think the line is fine. Against an aggro player, then yes, there are better ways, especially if he's capable of laying down a hand.

As for the river play in hand two, I just call here as well. Sure looks like he improved to me, otherwise why not pop back on the turn?

EDIT - upon rereading, my first graf is completely unnecessary since you succintly said why you think that. Eh. I can't read.