Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

1/2 NL game - New player comes in announces he always does business whether he was favorite or not. Sure enough - two to three hours in - He did business like 3 times where I think he was favorite everytime.
So I get into a hand where he goes all in when he flopped top 2 pairs and I called with bottom set. Pot was about $900. I turned down his offer for business and I go ahead and win the hand. He starts mumbling to the table about how young kids these days dont appreciate and return favors. Dont get me wrong - he wasnt being a jerk -- it was just a little comment and he didnt seem like a jerk at all so I know was a just a little upset about losing.
I normally dont do business when Im a favorite - I do sometimes when it's a coin toss or if Im a dog BUT I never bring up business - I dont mind just playing it out but in the cases when Im a dog - I always accept someones offer to do business but I never ask - How can anyone turn down doing business when you are a dog anyways?? heh heh.
But in this situation - would you go out of your own playing standards and do business out of courtesy?? To be honest also -- I would have accepted his offer to do business if I was the dog. I play for a living so winning and losing means more than someone playing for pleasure or for supplemental income.

For those that are not sure what doing business means....
"doing Business" in a club means the two player agrees to run the Turn and River card more than once - usually 2-3 times then u chop up the pot according to how many times u win.

What do you guys think?

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1/2 NL game - New player comes in announces he always does business whether he was favorite or not. Sure enough - two to three hours in - He did business like 3 times where I think he was favorite everytime.
So I get into a hand where he goes all in when he flopped top 2 pairs and I called with bottom set. Pot was about $900. I turned down his offer for business and I go ahead and win the hand. He starts mumbling to the table about how young kids these days dont appreciate and return favors. Dont get me wrong - he wasnt being a jerk -- it was just a little comment and he didnt seem like a jerk at all so I know was a just a little upset about losing.
I normally dont do business when Im a favorite - I do sometimes when it's a coin toss or if Im a dog BUT I never bring up business - I dont mind just playing it out but in the cases when Im a dog - I always accept someones offer to do business but I never ask - How can anyone turn down doing business when you are a dog anyways?? heh heh.
But in this situation - would you go out of your own playing standards and do business out of courtesy?? To be honest also -- I would have accepted his offer to do business if I was the dog. I play for a living so winning and losing means more than someone playing for pleasure or for supplemental income.

For those that are not sure what doing business means....
"doing Business" in a club means the two player agrees to run the Turn and River card more than once - usually 2-3 times then u chop up the pot according to how many times u win.

What do you guys think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely would not have done business in this situation, he had 4 outs, you are at a huge disadvantage here. Some people expect because they always do something whether it's to their advantage or not that everyone will do exactly the same with them. You did nothing wrong, don't worry about his reaction.

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

(I'm going to completely ignore ethics and discuss what's best for you monetarily.)

It doesn't make a difference in your EV on the specific hand, do you should consider other things.

There are basically two significant factors here:

1) Stack size- Did you have a big stack going into this hand? If you chopped it, would you still have a big stack most of the time? Is this a table where you want a big stack? If you've got your original buy-in and there are some deep donks at the table, definitely don't chop. If there are deep donks at the table and you both were deep going into this hand, chop. If you want a short stack, do the opposite.

2) Metagame- Would it be +EV to piss this guy off?

Ethically, it would've nice of you to fold the set [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

Hi PokerCrab,

I think you're confused. Being a dog in a hand should not make you more (or less) likely to do business. Running the hand a few times just makes the results move more quickly toward their expected result. So, your expectation is the same, regardless of whether you run it once for the whole pot, or 3 times for a third of the pot each time. All it does is reduce your and your opponent's variance. Consequently, it's bankroll considerations, and not whether you're leading or trailing in a hand, that matter when it comes to deciding on whether to do business.

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

doing business has nothing to do with being a dog or not, it has everything to do with your EV in a given hand and reducing your variance if you cant stomach losing huge sums of money.

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

I'll be the first to ask...

WTF does it mean to do business?

Edit: Maybe I should read the post entirely first before posting.

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

As cero pointed out, running it any amount of times will not change the EV of the hand at all. It just reduces variance.

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

he's new, so no
3 months from now, sure

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
he's new, so no
3 months from now, sure

[/ QUOTE ]

making a variance-related decision based on your closeness with the guy....i like it

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

nice presumption
if it's an established part of playing with him and he's a regular
else i'm not going to waste table time
period

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

One of the most important skills in live big bet poker is keeping the good games running. This doesnt seem like a problem now, in the midst of a Gold Rush, but in the future having these skills are just as important, if not more so, than your EV in any particular hand - and running cards doesnt change that anyway, as people have already stated.

Or to put it another way, say this guy plays in The World's Softest Private Game. Now you're officially a jerj, what's the chance of you getting an invite? Or say this player, who can easily afford to lose 6 figures a year, now sees the light and realises people just see him as an ATM, and quits for good.

A nice way to look at it is that you are in the entertainment business first, the gambling business second.

Alternate Universe you's are making more money.

gl

Dave
----

Poker Blog!

Just To Clarify
 

THERE IS NO DIRECT EV ADVANTAGE OR DISADVANTAGE TO DOING BUSINESS.

If you think that there is, then you must also think that getting AA 30 hands in a row is bad because odds are you'll lose one of them.

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

I run things as many times as they will let me, if asked. I never ask myself though, but I'm not sure why... Variance sucks and the happier you keep the people at your table the longer the action lasts.

Re: Just To Clarify
 

[ QUOTE ]
THERE IS NO DIRECT EV ADVANTAGE OR DISADVANTAGE TO DOING BUSINESS.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would I be incorrect in saying that given two choices with identical EV you should choose the one with the least variance?

CAN SOMEONE ANSWER
 

WTF DOES IT MEAN TO 'DO BUSINESS' ???????????????????????

Re: CAN SOMEONE ANSWER
 

[ QUOTE ]
WTF DOES IT MEAN TO 'DO BUSINESS' ???????????????????????

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

For those that are not sure what doing business means....
"doing Business" in a club means the two player agrees to run the Turn and River card more than once - usually 2-3 times then u chop up the pot according to how many times u win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Just To Clarify
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
THERE IS NO DIRECT EV ADVANTAGE OR DISADVANTAGE TO DOING BUSINESS.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would I be incorrect in saying that given two choices with identical EV you should choose the one with the least variance?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's perfectly reasonable. of course, then you should try to do business every time.

In this case, however, I think there is a difference in EV if you factor in later hands because pissing this guy off is probably +EV.

Re: Just To Clarify
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
THERE IS NO DIRECT EV ADVANTAGE OR DISADVANTAGE TO DOING BUSINESS.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would I be incorrect in saying that given two choices with identical EV you should choose the one with the least variance?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could be if there are a bunch of fish at the table with huge stacks. In that case, I may prefer to gamble it up and get a double-stack 1/4 of the time rather than end up with a 50 BB stack most of the time (when I'm on a draw or whatever), since I'll be reloading either way.

Re: Just To Clarify
 

I haven't thought too long about the math, but if it's a case where one player is heavily favored, would he not gain some advantage in doing business for the fact that if the dog hits one of his outs on the first or second trials, he has that many fewer outs for the last trial?

I recognize that if the favorite gets there in the first coule trials, he is also that much less favored in the last trial. But I'm thinking of a case where the opponent has a six-outer. For him to win all three trials, he would have to hit half of his outs. (Or more, if he happens to "waste an out" by hitting running quads or something.) For the favorite to win, he doesn't have to come close to finding half his "outs."

I haven't thought this through completely. Perhaps it still doesn't change anything at all.

Re: Just To Clarify
 

You dont shuffle the deck after each run at your club?

Re: Just To Clarify
 

It makes no EV difference whether you reshuffle. If you reshuffle the variance is higher than if you continue to run it.

Re: Club Ettiquettes - would u do business in this situation?
 

I think your play was fine. However if he was a superfish it was a bad move. Keep the fish with big money happy. Think long term here. If he was a solid player and or not a deep pocket fish do what you want.