Playing suited connectors
 

A friend of mine and I got into a disagreement about how I played this hand.

MP2: 28 hands - VPIP: 32.14 PFR:7.14
MP3: 55 hands - VPIP: 45.45 PFR: 9.09
SB: 9 hands - VPIP: 22.22 PFR:11.11
BB: 48 hands - VPIP: 41.67 PFR:10.42

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

The first discussion was about my pre-flop play. He insists I should have raised, to limit the field. I think I got to see the flop cheaply, and was hoping for a monster.

Flop: (7 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Great flop for me. With a flush and straight draw, I'm not going anywhere. A 6 gives me the nuts, a J gives me the ass-end of a straight, and a spade gives me the flush, but with concern.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Got the nuts, but no action. Didn't lose anyone. Please no spade...

River: (18.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO folds, Hero ....

This is where the second issue came up. With 3 to act behind you, do you call or raise here? What will make you the most money, or are you beat here?

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

preflop: limiting the field from the button doesn't work too well. that said i wouldn't mind a preflop raise, but i wouldn't do it every time.

flop: raise somewhere

turn: duh

river: call

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop: limiting the field from the button doesn't work too well. that said i wouldn't mind a preflop raise, but i wouldn't do it every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to increase the pot? I doubt you'd get anyone to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
flop: raise somewhere

[/ QUOTE ]
With all the action before me, I didn't think it necessary to re-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
river: call

[/ QUOTE ]
Call to get more money in the pot, or because you are worried about a higher flush? or both? I'm more concerned with the thinking here than the action.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

If you raise preflop here it is not to limit the field, but rather because you have a strong multi-way hand. There are 4 limpers who are coming with you to the flop no matter what.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

woo hoo! i'm 3-betting that flop.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Preflop: Why do you even want to limit the field here? You have a drawing hand, meaning you want as many people to pad the pot. If anything, you want to raise for value if you flop some decent draws, although 87 is close. T9 for sure.

Flop: When it comes back to you 3-bet, I'd just cap. You've got a strong draw and it's only one more SB and everyone will call it. $$$

Turn: Nothing really to say here.

River: It sure looks like MP3 has a flush, and likely a higher one than you. You don't include any AF numbers. Against an unknown who raises the 2-flush flop, c/c a turn, and then bets out on the river 3-flush, I'll call. One, you'll hopefully collect overcalls from 1 or 2 of those still to act. If you raise, you'll likely knock them out. Two, you don't expose yourself to a 3-bet if he does have a higher flush.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Not sure if I would 3 bet the flop or not, we're going to have to improve to win so I don't want to fold everyone out, but not capping when it gets back to you is criminal. Turn and river look good.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop: limiting the field from the button doesn't work too well. that said i wouldn't mind a preflop raise, but i wouldn't do it every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to increase the pot? I doubt you'd get anyone to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
flop: raise somewhere

[/ QUOTE ]
With all the action before me, I didn't think it necessary to re-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
river: call

[/ QUOTE ]
Call to get more money in the pot, or because you are worried about a higher flush? or both? I'm more concerned with the thinking here than the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the river raising is most likely going to get everyone that doesn't have a flush to fold. So you get as much (or more money) if they call one bet, and you don't get 3-bet if MP3 made a higher flush.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
River: It sure looks like MP3 has a flush, and likely a higher one than you. You don't include any AF numbers. Against an unknown who raises the 2-flush flop, c/c a turn, and then bets out on the river 3-flush, I'll call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I mislabeled two players, and forgot the AF. here they are:

MP2: 50 hands - VPIP: 16.00 PFR 6.00 AF: 1.33
MP3: 28 hands - VPIP: 32.14 PFR:7.14 AF: 2.14
CO: 55 hands - VPIP: 45.45 PFR: 9.09 AF: 1.91
SB: 9 hands - VPIP: 22.22 PFR:11.11 AF: 0.60
BB: 48 hands - VPIP: 41.67 PFR:10.42 AF: 0.55

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

River: (18.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 22.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 3c 4h (straight, six high).
BB has Qd Td (one pair, tens).
MP3 has Th Ad (one pair, tens).
Hero has 7s 8s (flush, ten high).
Outcome: Hero wins 22.50 BB. </font>

So, Lessons learned:
Should have raised pre-flop
Should have capped after 3 bet came back to me
I was right to call on the river, to keep everyone in.

Thanks for your input!

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Preflop: I can't imagine any reason for limiting the field. Your hand is crap in a small field.

Flop: You've got insane equity, here. With nobody going anywhere, apparently, I'm 3-betting this every time. If I have a small stroke and don't, I'm certainly capping it when it comes back to me.

Turn: As Miles said, "Duh."

River: Given the way MP3 played the hand, it's entirely possible that he's also on a flush, and if he is it's likely to be better than yours. Of course, given the fact that you've had 6 opponents, you could be forgiven for raising here, not remembering how he played the flop and turn.

Now, not for nothing, but you realize that your "reads" are almost entirely useless, right, whether you include PAF or not? Instead of giving us stats, you can just say, "The table was pretty LAGgish, but I've only been here for a few orbits." Then note anything out of the ordinary that you've noted about any of your opponents.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, Lessons learned:
Should have raised pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a hard and fast rule. Limping is fine.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, Lessons learned:
Should have raised pre-flop


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is not a hard and fast rule. Limping is fine.


[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

And if you are raising make sure you know why, it's not to limit teh field.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Right. My friend was insisting I raise to limit the field, which I disagreed with. However, I now see the value of raising pre-flop and capping on the flop, simply to increase the pot.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right. My friend was insisting I raise to limit the field, which I disagreed with. However, I now see the value of raising pre-flop and capping on the flop, simply to increase the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your equity is quite a bit higher on the flop than preflop.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now, not for nothing, but you realize that your "reads" are almost entirely useless, right, whether you include PAF or not? Instead of giving us stats, you can just say, "The table was pretty LAGgish, but I've only been here for a few orbits." Then note anything out of the ordinary that you've noted about any of your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, still getting used to what information is useful here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right. My friend was insisting I raise to limit the field, which I disagreed with. However, I now see the value of raising pre-flop and capping on the flop, simply to increase the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think 87s is good enough to raise here preflop unless the table is really loose passive.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Preflop is perfect. Raising here to "limit the field" is stupid. You want a huge un-raised field with this holding.

I like 3-betting the flop here. Build the pot.

Just call on the river. You no longer have the nuts, yet with 5 people seeing the showdown, you are probably ahead of 3 of them. Go for the overcalls.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Shoulda capped the flop. Your equity is larger than most everyone's here with a flush and straight draw. You want as much dead money in the pot as possible so raise raise raise.

The river you want to get as many overcalls as possible. If you raise here, not only do you risk knocking these players out, but you also risk getting 3-bet by the initial better. Calling here is win/win...unless you lose [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, still getting used to what information is useful here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

No worries, it can take some time. By the way, you probably should try to limit the number of hands you're posting. Looks to me like you're going through a bad run...don't drag us all into it.

Just because you lost doesn't mean you played badly. Try to make sure there's some specific, pertinent question about strategy involved in the hands you post.

Also, if you find yourself at the converter for the 3rd time in 2 hours, you're posting too many hands. Try to keep it to 2 (preferably 1) a day, and spend more time looking at and respnding to other people's posts. You learn more that way.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

I've only posted 2 hands today, and none before that for a while. I agree with you I should have posted the other hand in the NC thread.

I actually won this hand (results somewhere in the thread), but was curious if I let value slip away anywhere. Not capping the flop seems to be my one main mistake.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

*grunch*
There could be a case for raising preflop. I don't.

I think you've played a great hand.

Go for overcalls on the river.

EDIT: Looking again, you should have capped the flop when it came 3 back to you.
I still am strongly opposed to 3 betting. 3 betting this flop is just plain crazy talk.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

how do you limit the field on the button? Is limp/fold a popular line for these villians?

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Grunching.

Preflop
Limping is the right play. Why do you want to limit the field with small suited connectors? Limiting the field is only good for hands with high card strength. You want to see the flop cheaply. Has your friend read SSHE?

Flop.
A little scary. I don't know if you should cap at the end or not.

Turn.
Looks like everyone is drawing.

River.
Ouch. You're probably beat but you have to stay in a pot this big. I think overcalls is the way to go. If sb was on a flush draw as well you might get caught in between them so maybe a raise is better. But that gives MP3 a chance to reraise.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

I changed my mind again.
You played it perfect. (Assuming you went for overcalls on the river)

You don't want to 3 bet this flop. You're not going to clean up any outs and you definitely don't want to knock anyone out. You called, good job. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

When SB 3 bets, you should have dribbled in your pants a bit. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Everyone calls and it's back to you; there's a decent argument for value capping this flop BUT the last thing you want to do, now that you've got awesome position on the aggressor, is take the initiative away from him. You called, good job. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Capping this flop runs the risk, that if you do make your hand on the turn, it may get checked to you. When you just call the flop, your hand is beautifully disguised and you are in position to capitalize big time. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Unfortunately, it got checked anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

NH. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

discussion of results below in white:
<font color="white">
You might want to add to your notes on SB that he check-3bet with a backdoor OESD.

Also, why did MP3 not bet the turn? Was he scared of another checkraise from SB?</font>

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="white">You might want to add to your notes on SB that he check-3bet with a backdoor OESD.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that play completely perplexed me, and I certainly noted it. She didn't last long at the table.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, why did MP3 not bet the turn? Was he scared of another checkraise from SB?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's my guess. With that board and so many callers on a 3-bet, I don't blame him for being a little worried about <font color="white"> only having TPTK </font>.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]

You don't want to 3 bet this flop. You're not going to clean up any outs and you definitely don't want to knock anyone out. You called, good job. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Everyone calls and it's back to you; there's a decent argument for value capping this flop BUT the last thing you want to do, now that you've got awesome position on the aggressor, is take the initiative away from him. You called, good job. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Capping this flop runs the risk, that if you do make your hand on the turn, it may get checked to you. When you just call the flop, your hand is beautifully disguised and you are in position to capitalize big time. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you hit your hand on the turn that is. Miller writes a lot about this in SSHE, sometimes it's correct to give up a little bit of EV on the flop if it allows you to make more EV on the later streets. BUT - in this case your equity is so high on the flop that you're giving up too much to miss a raise here IMO.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't want to 3 bet this flop. You're not going to clean up any outs and you definitely don't want to knock anyone out. You called, good job. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. You want to 3-bet this flop. You have a flush draw and a double gutter for 15 outs. Easy 3-bet.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't want to 3 bet this flop. You're not going to clean up any outs and you definitely don't want to knock anyone out. You called, good job. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. You want to 3-bet this flop. You have a flush draw and a double gutter for 15 outs. Easy 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would it be worth it had the blinds both folded when it came back two (BB) and three (SB) bets to them? Would it be worth more for the two remaining opponents to be pot-committed, or to wait to push a bigger edge later?

OTOH, once everybody was in for 3, there is no reason whatsoever not to cap.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

I wouldn't raise preflop. This hand wants to see flops cheap and develop into them into monsters. Why try to narrow the field (the blinds)? The more the merrier with this hand. This hand misses alot anyway.

Flop: Get it capped. 15 outs to a straight or flush, right?

Turn: good, not much to say.

River: I like the call here, to encourage the others to play along (and worries of the 3-bet from a better flush).

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Looking again, you should have capped the flop when it came 3 back to you.
I still am strongly opposed to 3 betting. 3 betting this flop is just plain crazy talk.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense. You've got a cold-caller between yourself and the first raiser, so at least those two players are going to stay in. With JUST the flush draw you have enough equity to raise for value against 2 opponents (I discount the possibility of two-card flush over two-card flush almost entirely, as rare as it is; if the flush comes in and somebody else is still going nutbag, we worry about that, then). Add in the nut OESD and you've got enough equity to raise for value with just 1 opponent (you're better than 1:1 to make your hand by the river).

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Looking again, you should have capped the flop when it came 3 back to you.
I still am strongly opposed to 3 betting. 3 betting this flop is just plain crazy talk.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense. You've got a cold-caller between yourself and the first raiser, so at least those two players are going to stay in. With JUST the flush draw you have enough equity to raise for value against 2 opponents (I discount the possibility of two-card flush over two-card flush almost entirely, as rare as it is; if the flush comes in and somebody else is still going nutbag, we worry about that, then). Add in the nut OESD and you've got enough equity to raise for value with just 1 opponent (you're better than 1:1 to make your hand by the river).

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you've discounted the flush over flush only further strengthens the argument not to 3 bet.
I think you are strongly overestimated the chance that SB,BB,MP2 are all coming along for 1,2,2 bets more respectively (especially now you've discounted the flush).
<font color="blue">
If Hero 3bets </font>and SB folds, BB folds and MP2 fold(because their both facing a possible cap from MP3) it looks like this.
2sb dead money + 3sb from MP3 and CO = <font color="blue"> 8sb = 4sb equity</font>
<font color="green"> If Hero calls.</font>
sb folds, BBcalls, MP2 calls. = <font color="green"> 8sb = 4sb equity</font>
<font color="purple">If Hero 3bets </font> and a realistic best case scenario- all call.
= 12sb = 6sb equity.

Hero has 54% equity. <font color="red"> Best case scenario, you make an extra 1BB on the flop. </font>


Hero is 54% to make his hand by the river and 32% to make it on the turn. This increased likelyhood of making his hand on the turn is a major factor in wanting to smooth call this flop <font color="red"> AFTER SB 3bets </font> , BECAUSE YOU HAVE RAISELISCIOUS POSITION.
In all likelyhood there is a very slim chance you would normally ever got the chance to cap this flop.


Even if you don't make your hand on the turn. You still want 4 players in. Hero is still 32% to make his hand on the river. If he keeps all 4+ players in he is making another +EV call on the turn and he gets to draw cheaply.
As matter of fact +12%EV*4BB = .5BB
If you had only 2 players left at this point his call is roughly neutral EV and this further reduces the profitability of the flop 3bet.

There are many times when a 3 bet on the flop with the straight flush draw is the right move.
IMO This is not one of them.

There have been a few cases of this overly aggressive 'edge pushing' on the flop recently.
<font color="green"> Kwazzie theory is</font>: Never take the initiative away from an aggressor on the sb street, when you have perfect relative position on the BB streets.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

The problem with your math is that you've mixed up value betting/raising and calling. When you determine if a call is +EV, you use the size of the pot, not the bets going in on that street. Hence, you would not ever be making a "near neutral EV call" at any point in this hand. There are some other factors too, but this one is the most critical IMO.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Kwaz, this is a very well thought-out reply, and I understand what you're saying. I have three issues:

1. I think you are significantly over-estimating the likelihood that players are going to bow out on any street (but especially the flop) when they've already put money in.

2. When either the flush or straight card falls on the turn, it's likely to kill your action. Even if the donks with overcards that were going crazy on the flop don't recognize the flush/straight, they're still less likely to still be crazy on the big-bet street with UI overcards. It may only be 1BB difference, but where do you plan to make up that 1BB?

3. Again, maybe it's only a 1BB swing, but if a hand like this comes up once every 50 hands, that's 2BB/100 added to your winrate if you get it in...actually, it's only 1BB/100 because it costs you an extra .5BB when you lose and you only add 1BB when you win. But, you see my point.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

SSHE 101 - Gather around class.

Playing a suited connector...

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (28 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (45 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 48 BB

Results below: MP1 has 9c Tc (two pair, tens and sevens).
CO has Ad 5d (two pair, sevens and fives).
Hero has 8h 9h (straight, jack high).
Outcome: Hero wins 48 BB.

Hero pussies out on the river because he's no longer holding the nuts and leaves several more bets on the table.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Don't three bet the flop
I think this is absolutely incorrect! Its preposterous and ridiculous.

Even heads up I want this hand capped on the flop. I'm a favourite to win the hand, even 2 handed! Not 3-betting/capping this flop is an ERROR (IMO) and it is costing hero money! Costing hero money = giving money to opponents.

For the mathy types:

chance to hit 15 outter = 1 - (chance of NOT hitting 15 outter)

= 1 - (32/47 X 31/46)
= .54

54% pot equity. Big edge.

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

And another way to go about it (yeah, yeah, I posted in MP2 and this is the karma biting me in the ass, SIIHP):

Eurobet Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, Hero checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, BB folds.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB.
Results:
Hero has 6c 5c (a flush, queen high.)
UTG has Jc 9c (a flush, queen high.)
UTG wins 9.75 BB.

All this after I was talking about how rare flush over flush is. *sigh*

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

Slightly off topic:

I busted out of a tourney recently with a queen high flush when a guy had an ace high flush because I forgot something important I read in a book.

not verbatem but basically...

"When you hold a queen high flush and the Jack is on the board and you are up against alot of counter-aggression you must be careful. The only flush you can beat is someone with it ten high and very few people will continually push a ten high flush"

Re: Playing suited connectors
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kwaz, this is a very well thought-out reply, and I understand what you're saying. I have three issues:

1. I think you are significantly over-estimating the likelihood that players are going to bow out on any street (but especially the flop) when they've already put money in.

[/ QUOTE ]

This I can see as a strong arguement. But if you are villian facing 2 back to you without a flush or str8 draw, what do YOU do?
For every one person you knock out who would have given one extra bet, you cost yourself .54sb.
If SB would have called 2 but not 3, you've just blown away all your profit from making this play.

[ QUOTE ]

2. When either the flush or straight card falls on the turn, it's likely to kill your action. Even if the donks with overcards that were going crazy on the flop don't recognize the flush/straight, they're still less likely to still be crazy on the big-bet street with UI overcards. It may only be 1BB difference, but where do you plan to make up that 1BB?

[/ QUOTE ]
I make it up when it DOESN'T kill my action. That's the point. Both 1 and 2 seem contradictory. If they're dumb enough to cold call the flop, how are they smart enough not to bet the turn when my card comes. If they are smart enough to not bet the turn, it's only because I let them know what I had (or scared them)by 3 betting the flop.
[ QUOTE ]

3. Again, maybe it's only a 1BB swing, but if a hand like this comes up once every 50 hands, that's 2BB/100 added to your winrate if you get it in...actually, it's only 1BB/100 because it costs you an extra .5BB when you lose and you only add 1BB when you win. But, you see my point.

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When you make your hand and the aggressor bets out on the turn, you stand to make an extra ~85% of a possible 8BB. You can see how infrequently this line has to be correct to be more profitable.

Dont get me wrong. I'm all in favour of pushing massive edges when you've got them. And like I said I'm all in favour of 3 betting the str8 flush draw. I just think that in this case it is wrong. So if the str8\flush situation comes up 1:50 hands, then this particular str8/flush situation comes up maybe 1:400 hands.

The criteria has to be.
- I've got the underside of the str8\flush and I'm not clearing up outs by 3betting.
- I'm facing more than 1 villian with 2 cold when I 3 bet.
- There are two aggressors in the hand and I have relative position on the major aggressor for the following rounds.