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-   -   HU against a "PT'er" (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=398329)

silkyslim 12-14-2005 01:43 PM

HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
Villain is a tight aggressive table coach who uses PT and will get cute. i think this is standard, he berated me.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

jackdaniels 12-14-2005 01:44 PM

Re: HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
Standard.

Fat Nicky 12-14-2005 01:46 PM

Re: HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
nh

ReptileHouse 12-14-2005 01:50 PM

Re: HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
It's possible I could find a fold on the flop as my overcard outs are likely very dirty, but I don't mind the call. Once that turn card hits, the hand plays itself.

He's just bitter because you hit a runner runner to beat him. Nice hand.

W. Deranged 12-14-2005 01:56 PM

Re: HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
Obviously the only suspect street is the flop.

In general you probably have like 3-ish outs here. A three-betting hand (with the exception of JJ, maybe 99; TT has you drawing basically dead) is dominating you here (AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ). Occasionally you have three over card outs but your giving reverse implied odds with them and out of position will possibly miss bets when you hit anyway. Your bad door flush is suspect and maybe worth 1 out. The backdoor straight is even more unlikely. I think it's hard to say you have more than 3-4 effective outs here. We can't can't implied odds because in fact we're giving them, really. Heads-up a decent taggish type is not often checking behind on the turn here, as AK and AQ still rate to be the best hands on a turn blank and every other hand is going full-steam ahead.


So, I hate to agree with the table-coachy dude, but the flop call is incorrect in my opinion.

12-14-2005 01:57 PM

Re: HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's possible I could find a fold on the flop as my overcard outs are likely very dirty, but I don't mind the call. Once that turn card hits, the hand plays itself.

He's just bitter because you hit a runner runner to beat him. Nice hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I initially thought the same thing, but he's got a couple things going for him other than overcards.

Let's say his overcards are worth an out each for two outs total. He has a flush (not the nut flush, though) and straight draw. So, maybe 2 outs for those. With this size pot, he needs less than 3 outs to call the flop.

Of course, had I been playing this, I would have never been able to do figure this out in time to make the call.

EDIT: Or am I being too generous with outs?

jackdaniels 12-14-2005 01:59 PM

Re: HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
[ QUOTE ]
So, I hate to agree with the table-coachy dude, but the flop call is incorrect in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of flop would you want here to continue in the hand? Top pair? Two pair? A str8 draw?

silkyslim 12-14-2005 02:01 PM

Re: HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's possible I could find a fold on the flop as my overcard outs are likely very dirty, but I don't mind the call. Once that turn card hits, the hand plays itself.

He's just bitter because you hit a runner runner to beat him. Nice hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
im getting 8.5-1 and i have a 2 backdoors and 2 overs. all of these may or may not be good. his range is a little wider than some are thinking because we were chatting and i had a read he was isolating. so ATs-AKs, 88-AA, KQs, KJs, AJ-AKo. with that range do u still fold?

W. Deranged 12-14-2005 02:02 PM

Re: HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
Where do you get the impression he needs less than 3 outs to call the flop? He's getting a little under 9-1, meaning his equity needs to be in the 9-10% range here. (He'll never have the odds to call the turn unimproved unless he picks up a big draw). That means he needs something like 4.5-5 outs consistently to make this call close to correct. I actually think he needs a bit more because so often he'll hit and lose but often when he hits and wins he won't extract max value: hence he's giving reverse implied odds. Needing safely 5 clean outs to proceed, as he never has more than 3 overcard outs really, and the flush and straight draw are longshots, I see effectively 4-4.5 outs here and a clear fold.

bozlax 12-14-2005 02:06 PM

Re: HU against a \"PT\'er\"
 
[ QUOTE ]
With this size pot, he needs less than 3 outs to call the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? 3 outs is 14:1...he's getting 8.5:1. He CAN'T hit a definite winning hand on the turn, so he has to go to the river, regardless, but he's either putting in another bet or folding on the turn, so I don't think you can count flop-to-river odds, and Hero's implieds suck since the river is the only street he'll have to make up bets.


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