Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

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I had Q2o in SB with 6 limpers.

Flop would have given me top two pair

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How do you get top 2-pair with Q2o?

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When the flop comes Q-2-A, of course! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

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So the point about a trash hand like say a 92o being worse as more limpers comes in is true but to a point.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "to a point."

People think that a lot of limpers means you get good odds. 11-1 is not good odds when you have to try to outflop 5 people. You only outflop AA about 3.6% of the time, usually with two pair, and you will often lose after you flop two pair. More limpers means it is more clear to fold trash in the SB.

92o wins 38.9% against one random hand, 78% of par. It wins 5.2% against 9 random hands, 52% of par. The positional disadvantage and additional betting rounds make it clear to fold after many limpers.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

Um, yes, you are correct that 2 junk cards win much more often against a single hand than 9 hands, but that wasn't my point.

My point is that when you play something like 92o out of the SB against a large field your goal is not to eck by with top pair, it's too see a flop and catch a monster (trips, straight - not int he case of 92 of course, etc.) and win many many bets on later streets from bad opponents.

If you flop badly (which of course you will the overwhelming majority of the time) you simply check/fold.

The profibility of a hand is not only how often it wins but how much it wins.

It's clear that more people in the hand makes 92o worse and worse in terms of how OFTEN it will win, but it improves how MUCH it will win on the occasions it does.

You still need to have a read on the table to know if you have the implied odds on the later streets to make it worth it to play though, because you don't want to flop a monster and then have everyone fold post flop.

You must also consider the fact that everyone limped, so normally you are not up against big pairs, so even flopping two pair will usually hold up. Anytime you play low junk you run the risk of being counterfitted, but like I said, based on the fact there were no preflop raises there normally won't be any high pairs out.

You said something like 92o wins 5.2% of the time vs. 9 random hands, which is 19-1 against.

But if 6 people limp you are getting immediate odds of 15-1 on your 1/2 SB call.

This of course is pre-factoring in any implied odds.

< Thumbs up >
 

I'm not sure I have ever read or heard a more concise yet crystal clear explanation of this concept.

Attention, beginners -

If you listen to this guy you may not be beginners for very long.

- nh

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

If you want to spend that half-bet on a lottery ticket be sure it's a suited lottery ticket; failing that, at least raise your standards to where your "trash" hand has straight potential.

9-2/off flops 2 pair ~ 1 time in 50 and trips ~ 1 time in 70. (Oh, yeah - and quads one time in 9,800).

As was pointed out by a previous respondent, the problem here is not only the rarity of the event - you also have no lock on the pot when you do hit one of these miracles.

Nines and deuces require deft handling in a 5 or 6 way pot.

Translation: You'll tend to win a little when you win while losing alot when you get run down (or were never ahead to begin with).

Trip deuces are a good flop in terms of winning the hand but how much will you win on those rare occasions when this miracle flop (less than 1%) appears ? Any who stay will likely have a draw to beat you; when small pairs hit the flop in unraised pots even bad players see the "caution" sign light up.

Trip 9s are even worse - all that applies to trip 2s apply here only moreso.

*

Maybe the following [contrived] example will clarify things.

There used to be a site whose software was poorly designed and awash in glitches. If you sat out your small blind and posted it behind the button the server treated this post as live money - if there was no raise you could see the flop by merely completing the bet.

Assume you held 9-2/off against 6 limpers; let's further assume that the the button and both blinds had only enough chips to call (and could not raise).

Do you call here ?

If you answered "yes, without hesitation" - I'm afraid ya' just don't get it.

If you answered, "yes, but without enthusiasm" you do get it, and if you said, "fold" I hold no huge quarrel with your choice (though it is a profitable call).

If this is a marginal call at best WITH POSITION and with no chance of being raised, can you see where it would be an easy fold from bad position ?

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

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I had Q2o in SB with 6 limpers.

Flop would have given me top two pair

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I just put that in to make sure people were paying attention, lol.

That was a typo...

SP
How do you get top 2-pair with Q2o?

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Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

LOL - Yeah, top two with Q-2/off - What a kidder. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

- We all know you meant Q-2/suited. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

UATrewqaz,

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You said something like 92o wins 5.2% of the time vs. 9 random hands, which is 19-1 against.

But if 6 people limp you are getting immediate odds of 15-1 on your 1/2 SB call.

This of course is pre-factoring in any implied odds.

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But the problem is you don't know if "this" hand is in the 5.2% so it really needs to be lowered. I.E. running 2's or running 9's or running 9/2 or you flop a 2 and a 2 or 9 would come on the turn or river to give you the winner. Those miracles all make up that 5.2% and need to be discounted.

Also the flop could come K94 and your 9's would win at showdown but with 5 people in you usually can't feel comfortable betting OOP with SPNK.

So that 5.2% is pretty "generous" and really indicates best case scenario.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

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What about the situation where it is folded around to you in the small blind, do you call with any two against the BB. Raise with say 89s. And if you call with any two, what then do you do if it gets raised behind.

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This really depends on how frequently the BB will raise, and how agressively he plays on the flop. Against a decent heads-up player, the SB is pretty much a raise or fold proposition. Against a passive player, completing with suited connectors and such may be profitable, especially if it's a 2/3 BB.

If i'm heads up in the BB, I will raise a wide range of hands if the SB completes and usually bet the flop, whether I hit or not. If I have absolute trash, I will take the free flop, bet if I get any pices, and bet about half the time when I don't hit.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

The 5.2% win rate for 9-2/off refers to hot-cold; it's accurate only if there is no post-flop action.

It also assumes that all callers have random hands.

- I've been fortunate enough to play in games with some truly horrible/clueless players but even this bunch would refuse to play the very worst of their startin hands . . . such as, oh, 8-2/off.