Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I've been mostly playing $25NL, where I can basically find an easy game anywhere, and have no problem 8 or 10 tabling at 5-10BB/100.

I just tried some $50NL on PokerRoom network and the tables became significantly tighter. It almost seems that it's not as profitable to play at $50NL because of this, and I also probably can't multitable as much. However, I did fairly well at the few $50PL tables they had, which were fairly loose.

What kind of experience have you guys had with this? And what would you recommend as a plan to move up?

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

Move up.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I almost posted this exact same question. The 25NL games are filled with juicy players on pokerroom. I haven't moved up yet becomes the games change significatly going to 50NL.. However it is necessarily in learning i suppose so eventually i will. But i'm positive I'm making more money on 25NL then i would on 50nl.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I have almost exactly the same problem. I beat the 25NL tables easily. But the 50NL tables are significantly tighter (full ring change from 45-50% see flops to 30-35%) and people are also much more aggressive.

I go from 10PTBB at the 25s to barely break even at the 50s. It is a small sample size and I think I do play a bit scared, but the difference does seem a lot bigger than people give it credit for.

I was really glad to read this post - I thought I was the only one with this problem.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

Yeah I'm almost certain I'll be making more at 25 than 50. Although I did do well at 50PL today, I don't know if that'll last and I just broke even at 50NL, in which I noticed a significant change in tightness from 25NL.

So what is the solution to this? One has to move up eventually correct? When does moving up become more profitable?

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I'm almost certain I'll be making more at 25 than 50. Although I did do well at 50PL today, I don't know if that'll last and I just broke even at 50NL, in which I noticed a significant change in tightness from 25NL.

So what is the solution to this? One has to move up eventually correct? When does moving up become more profitable?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only solution is to play better if you really want to move up. Post hands and whatnot. Moving up becomes profitable when your winrate at 50NL becomes more profitable than your winrate at 25NL. No real magic to it.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

dang... are you guys serious?? If you have the BR for it (which is the only thing stopping my own poverty-stricken self from jumping up) than do it!!!!!

THis is where all that money invested in all those books will FINALLY come into play!! You can FINALLY use the info found in them!!!

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

Right, but if we're not good enough to make at least 1/2 the BB/100 at $50 as we did in $25 w/ the same number of tables, then there's no use moving up yet (except for the experience factor, which I'm also wondering if it's better to move up just to get ur feet wet and prepare for the next level, even if ur not makin quite as much as before, YET). My bankroll is good for NL100 but I don't feel I'm ready for it yet.

And besides, NL25 is like sittin on the beach, sippin down a brewsky, while money falls from the sky.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right, but if we're not good enough to make at least 1/2 the BB/100 at $50 as we did in $25 w/ the same number of tables, then there's no use moving up yet (except for the experience factor, which I'm also wondering if it's better to move up just to get ur feet wet and prepare for the next level, even if ur not makin quite as much as before, YET). My bankroll is good for NL100 but I don't feel I'm ready for it yet.

And besides, NL25 is like sittin on the beach, sippin down a brewsky, while money falls from the sky.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah ok, you're right to some extent... hahaha ... (i like that metaphor)....

BUt A> there's still variance in 25NL. which does hit you hard.

B> Why aren't any of the pros playing 25NL???

You can definitely make money in the higher limits. And the style of play in the 25NL will not work in the higher limits. In fact, its a losing style.

I'm not one to brag about my domination in the higher limits, but i know it's more than "nut-peddling". And it is possible to get ahead at a significant rate equivalent to and better than your current limits.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And besides, NL25 is like sittin on the beach, sippin down a brewsky, while money falls from the sky.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Moving up depends on what your poker goals are. If you are in it for the money, you should try and move up. NL50 > NL25 money-wise for decent players. And NL100 is better yet.

Shoot for NL100 as a nice place to be. Money starts being more significant at that level. I've been paying the bills with NL100 money this whole past year.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I remember back in the day, when I felt I was destroying the 25$ NL I moved up to 50$ NL. The difference on the site I was playing on was astounding, as it was a huge nitfest and I was the donator most of the time, and I lost a good chunk of my BR before I knew what hit me. I was much much worse than I obviously thought. Thankfully, I moved back down, found another site,more than doubled my bankroll there in two days, did a LOT of studying, and moved up level by level gradually, taking shots at higher stakes whenever I was comfortable. I never -just- played one limit though, except when I was starting out.

Bottom line is, move up when you are comfortable, but learn as you are playing. Post hands, get better, don't sit around wasting time just nut-peddling all of the idiots. You don't want to sit around at the kiddie pool your whole life [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]

And besides, NL25 is like sittin on the beach, sippin down a brewsky, while pennies fall from the sky.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And besides, NL25 is like sittin on the beach, sippin down a brewsky, while pennies fall from the sky.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, yeah I was going to mention it's not the kinda money many of you are used to, but bringin in $300 - $500 a week for a college student isn't bad, FOR MOST.

So basically most of you guys are saying it's worth it to move up, even if you don't do as well at first. But we all have to get better and grow, and eventually the higher limits will pay off, if not immediately.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

well, not everyone is meant to win when they move up. If you find that you lose/barely break even after 15k hands, then you should probably move back down. If not, then stay up there

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I play $50NL 5-max on Pokerroom (moved down from $100NL full ring to learn shorthanded play) and believe me there are some terrible players there. The same goes for $50NL (and $100NL) full ring. I only play 1 or 2 tables though - I'd suggest you play fewer tables while adjusting. As you move up you will meet a greater proportion of decent players amongst the donkeys so you need to pay attention to which are which.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I find it funny that people actually consider not moving up...why are you playing poker if not to improve?

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny that people actually consider not moving up...why are you playing poker if not to improve?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fun?

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

The first few times I attempted the move to the $50 level I was bleeding money. I'm sure some people loved to see me come to the table. In September I decided to just ride out the losses until my bankroll couldn't take the level. It took a couple of months, but I am starting to see it really turn around. Patience is the key to moving up. You are probably going to take a beating starting out, but once you get a feel for the game it will become more profitable.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I guess it depends, I did alot better at 50s than 25s. There is a big jump of skills from 50s to 100s. I think stuck at low limit too long does little to improve your poker skills. It's always tough to dive into deep water and you will sufer some breakeven/losing stream due to your bad habit at lowlevel, but once you adjust properly, your payoff is big.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is a big jump of skills from 50s to 100s...

...once you adjust properly, your payoff is big.

[/ QUOTE ]Would you mind elaborating on the adjustments needed when moving from 25NL to 50NL and from 50NL to 100NL, based on your observations and experience?

Thanks!
M

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

If you enjoy having $2X more than having $X then you should move up once you're beating NL25.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right, but if we're not good enough to make at least 1/2 the BB/100 at $50 as we did in $25 w/ the same number of tables, then there's no use moving up yet (except for the experience factor, which I'm also wondering if it's better to move up just to get ur feet wet and prepare for the next level, even if ur not makin quite as much as before, YET). My bankroll is good for NL100 but I don't feel I'm ready for it yet.

And besides, NL25 is like sittin on the beach, sippin down a brewsky, while money falls from the sky.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can stay at 25NL, make your $10-20/hr or whatever, or you can move up, which in the short term might decrease your winrate, but which in the long run allows you to get better at poker and potentially make a higher winrate at bigger limits. So it kind of depends what your goals are.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I think many people assume that $50NL must be twice as tough as $25NL, because everyone playing there must have started by beating the lower limit before moving up. I'm sure this is nowhere near the case. There are plenty of casual players who can afford to play several hours a week at this level, AND to consistently lose, without it making any real difference to them financially. They're just in it to gamble, and find gambling with $50 more fun than doing it with $25. So take their money.

(Disclaimer: I'm also a casual player playing several hours a week - I just take it more seriously than most [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I am no expert, I played along time on bodog, then came to one of the big sites a few months ago, and started at NL50, and got beat down a little. Moved back down to NL25 learned what I needed to, (see below) and as the BR increased (also adding in RB) I am now up to NL200 in about 4 months.
I play about 20-25 hours a week when possible and I am not great player. At NL25 my win rate was only like 7PTBB, at NL50 it was 7PTBB as well, at NL100 it was only 4PTBB but I continue to move up..why? Because 3PTBB/100 at 100 hours per month 5 tabling plus RB at NL200 would be over 50k per year (that is actually a low estimate) and I can guarentee my poker skills are nothing great, but they are getting much better, playing against better competition and continuing to read this board. And when I get my BR up to the next level, I will move up again...

As for what you need to do differently when moving up. At NL25 and to a lesser extent at NL50 you can just about play all your big pocket pairs to the end just trying to get all your money in where ever you can, but you need to start thinking a little more about what the guys have when they play back at you. Fold to reraises that could easily be sets etc. At 50 and 100, I made so much of my winnings off of sets, and when you get in trouble is when you go too far with the one paired hands. At NL200 so far, I have seen my sets getting paid off much less (could be the small sample size) and my big pocket pairs being challenged a lot more, by good and bad hands.
Hope this helps a little.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

i recently moved from Party 25NL to 50NL and i'm not see much of a difference.. yeah there are a few tightys, but there are also plenty of those loose 50+%VPIPers.. both can be beat - just have to adapt to the tables.

i would never stay at a lower limit if i had the roll to try out a higher one. if youre getting beat up, move back down and settle yourself out.

take the shot!!

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

Yeah, I'm just worried when nut peddling will become ineffective. You can do it at 25NL and no one will ever catch on. Also I'm not one for continuation bets (scared to bluff mostly), and I'm even fairly cautious with missed flop bets (in low limit many times there's a multiway raised pot), which I assume you have to do more as the limits become more aggressive. Nonetheless, I shall learn, and will take your advice and move up.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

oh man.. you cannot be afraid of continuation bets - cb's in position are a very powerful thing.

i make a decent chunk cb'ing missed flops and take the pot down right there. if they call or raise then you either need to reevaluate your situation on the turn or fold to the raise.

please please PLEASE reconsider this part of your game!

any others feel free to jump in, but i think cb'ing is an extremely powerful weapon.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm just worried when nut peddling will become ineffective. You can do it at 25NL and no one will ever catch on. Also I'm not one for continuation bets (scared to bluff mostly), and I'm even fairly cautious with missed flop bets (in low limit many times there's a multiway raised pot), which I assume you have to do more as the limits become more aggressive. Nonetheless, I shall learn, and will take your advice and move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on this, maybe you should stay at $25 for a while and experiment with c-betting -- it's a very important part of NL. Although I play $25 myself, I think it must be a very necessary tool if you are going to move up.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh man.. you cannot be afraid of continuation bets - cb's in position are a very powerful thing.

i make a decent chunk cb'ing missed flops and take the pot down right there. if they call or raise then you either need to reevaluate your situation on the turn or fold to the raise.

please please PLEASE reconsider this part of your game!

any others feel free to jump in, but i think cb'ing is an extremely powerful weapon.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't tell you how much i agree with this

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I agree, this is also why I am hesitant. I just always seem to find myself bluffing at the wrong time, so I don't do it so much anymore (and I really don't need to at 25NL, and it may even be -EV cuz they call so much). But yeah that's one thing I know I have to work on.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a big jump of skills from 50s to 100s...

...once you adjust properly, your payoff is big.

[/ QUOTE ]Would you mind elaborating on the adjustments needed when moving from 25NL to 50NL and from 50NL to 100NL, based on your observations and experience?

Thanks!
M

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 25 and 50 are so bad because people do not read the board. For example, they will call big bet w 4 to a straight or 3 flush on board with 2 pair or worse. People are so willing to call it makes bluff almost useless at these levels. Just let them pay off your monsters! At 100NL or above, this changes dramatically and people play draws more aggressively in general comparing to 50s. Nut peddling still work at this level, but once people put you on a tight rock image, they fold whenever you bet big!

I play only 6 max. Learning to adjust to your opponent is the most important skills. For example play against maniac could be very profitable (for someone think they are dangerous, he probably does not adjust well). Once I get a feel of the maniac, I call raise with any 2 playable card. If other people do not adjust well, they contribute a lot of EV to you too.

There are probably alot of other important things I might or might now know. Variance at 100s is a bitch. Tilt almost 300 yesterday after some very bad beat. While still up 1k for the month, I might need to play like maniac at 25s for a change of pace. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, this is also why I am hesitant. I just always seem to find myself bluffing at the wrong time, so I don't do it so much anymore (and I really don't need to at 25NL, and it may even be -EV cuz they call so much). But yeah that's one thing I know I have to work on.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't look at it as bluffing, when making a continuation bet you're most likely just protecting what is the best hand.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

I suck at the search function, but someone should link Fimbulwinter's post on when you know you are ready to move up levels. The FAQ should be updated to include it.

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

fimbulwinter's post

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you enjoy having $2X more than having $X then you should move up once you're beating NL25.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
fimbulwinter's post

[/ QUOTE ]

THANKS [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
fimbulwinter's post

[/ QUOTE ]

God, i miss Fim...

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

link no worky?

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Would you mind elaborating on the adjustments needed when moving from 25NL to 50NL.


[/ QUOTE ]

1. Reverse implied odds - if you give someone a chance to break you by undercharging then overpaying, then will let you do it more frequently at $50 NL

2. I find that $50NL players have more defined styles (mostly loose agressive and rocks). In many ways i find it easier to interpret a $50NL players actions, as they are more textbook.

3. Online sites are roughly equivalent in player skill at $25NL - not so at $50NL - party is substantially fishier than UB or FullTilt or PokerRoom at the higher levels.

My $.03
Scott

Re: Moving from $25 to $50, is it worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
fimbulwinter's post

[/ QUOTE ]
That link didn't work for me. Not too long ago, someone posted a fimbulwinter digest. I've reposted the link to it a couple of times. Once SSNL gets a new moderator, one of his/her/their first tasks should be to include the classic fimbulwinter posts in the FAQ.