When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

How many limpers does it take to make completing the SB with a poor hand +EV?

I had Q2o in SB with 6 limpers. I folded (was playing a tricky hand for big pot at another table). BB completed. 7 players to the Flop.

Flop would have given me top two pair, also putting a 2-flush on board. The 2 paired on the Turn and also made a 3-flush. There was tons of action and pot ended up being ~14BBs. Of course, the probability of the hand playing out like this is minimal.

So generally speaking, what is the # of limpers that give you enough odds (pot & implied) to complete with a weak hand? What are some table considerations that would alter that #? (eg BB is super aggressive & most likely will raise PF facing limpers.)

SP

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

[ QUOTE ]

I had Q2o in SB with 6 limpers.

Flop would have given me top two pair

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you get top 2-pair with Q2o?

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

At a table of weak players when 5+ people have limped I'll complete in the SB with any two cards.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

Depends on the blind structure. In a 2/3 blind structure it is almost never correct to fold in an unraised pot.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

Qx-1.5x-1.4x

hahahaha

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

Total trash like 72o, Q2o, J3o are 1:28 chance to hit a solid hands like 2 pair or better. So bascially the only time you play those is when the SB is 2/3. With 5 callers and the BB you are getting 21:1 on your hand right there. If you flop 2 pair or better can easily make the remaining bets later on down easily. With that many players someone hit.

Now for 1/2 the blind you still need a ton of limpers. Now you can call with a hand like 87o, J5s, Q3s. But you have to play it very carefully and have a table full of loose calling stations to the river to compensate for the times you get beat. With a hand like J5s you have about a 1:5.5 shot at making something decent 15.29%. Flush draw, flush, or 2 pair or better.

1/3 blind I treat pretty much like no blind. But I still count the odds there.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

When there are more limpers, trash hands become worse, and it is more clear to fold them for 1/2 of a small bet.

Against one limper, there is a decent chance your hand is good if you even flop a pair. Against many limpers, you can't profitably continue with just a low pair.

If you were getting really good pot odds against one player, you could play any two cards. If you get really good pot odds because you have to come up with the best hand out of 10, you still need to fold Q2o.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

Well my general goal when I play trash out of hte SB vs. a large field is "Flop big or go home", I don't really see the flop hoping to catch a part of it.

If you play like a 75s and flop a pair of 7's you are out of position against a large field with a very marginal holding (reverse implied odds).

So the point about a trash hand like say a 92o being worse as more limpers comes in is true but to a point.

You're basically saying, heads up a 92o can win by say pairing up the 9, whereas against a large field a pair of 9's will rarely win, which is totally true.

And I'm saying, the goal of completing with the SB is not to try to win with a pair of 9's but rather to catch a flop like A22 and win a big pot.

The fundamental question of scenario 2 of course is that catching a fat flop is very rare and thus you must have the right odds (both immediate and implied) to play.

my first live B&M experience I have 63o in the SB, every person at the table except one limps, so I complete, feeling I have the implied odds due to the fact these people will pay off a big hand the whole way.

Flop is X63 rainbow, for example.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

What about the situation where it is folded around to you in the small blind, do you call with any two against the BB. Raise with say 89s. And if you call with any two, what then do you do if it gets raised behind.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

With 5 or more limpers and a passive player in the BB I like the odds for playing many junk hands in loose/passive games when the SB is 1/2, and will play practically any hand when it is 2/3. Getting >12:1 on my bet is attractive if I think my postflop play is superior to most or all competitors. Against even a few solid postflop players I stick close to the SSHE hand guidelines.

With weak speculative hands you can score some big pots when you hit the flop big on a relatively safe looking board.

I also really like playing any hand when folded to the SB. There was a great article in last month's 2+2 newsletter about this and it has added greatly to my win rate in short handed games.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I had Q2o in SB with 6 limpers.

Flop would have given me top two pair

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you get top 2-pair with Q2o?

[/ QUOTE ]

When the flop comes Q-2-A, of course! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

[ QUOTE ]
So the point about a trash hand like say a 92o being worse as more limpers comes in is true but to a point.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean by "to a point."

People think that a lot of limpers means you get good odds. 11-1 is not good odds when you have to try to outflop 5 people. You only outflop AA about 3.6% of the time, usually with two pair, and you will often lose after you flop two pair. More limpers means it is more clear to fold trash in the SB.

92o wins 38.9% against one random hand, 78% of par. It wins 5.2% against 9 random hands, 52% of par. The positional disadvantage and additional betting rounds make it clear to fold after many limpers.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

Um, yes, you are correct that 2 junk cards win much more often against a single hand than 9 hands, but that wasn't my point.

My point is that when you play something like 92o out of the SB against a large field your goal is not to eck by with top pair, it's too see a flop and catch a monster (trips, straight - not int he case of 92 of course, etc.) and win many many bets on later streets from bad opponents.

If you flop badly (which of course you will the overwhelming majority of the time) you simply check/fold.

The profibility of a hand is not only how often it wins but how much it wins.

It's clear that more people in the hand makes 92o worse and worse in terms of how OFTEN it will win, but it improves how MUCH it will win on the occasions it does.

You still need to have a read on the table to know if you have the implied odds on the later streets to make it worth it to play though, because you don't want to flop a monster and then have everyone fold post flop.

You must also consider the fact that everyone limped, so normally you are not up against big pairs, so even flopping two pair will usually hold up. Anytime you play low junk you run the risk of being counterfitted, but like I said, based on the fact there were no preflop raises there normally won't be any high pairs out.

You said something like 92o wins 5.2% of the time vs. 9 random hands, which is 19-1 against.

But if 6 people limp you are getting immediate odds of 15-1 on your 1/2 SB call.

This of course is pre-factoring in any implied odds.

< Thumbs up >
 

I'm not sure I have ever read or heard a more concise yet crystal clear explanation of this concept.

Attention, beginners -

If you listen to this guy you may not be beginners for very long.

- nh

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

If you want to spend that half-bet on a lottery ticket be sure it's a suited lottery ticket; failing that, at least raise your standards to where your "trash" hand has straight potential.

9-2/off flops 2 pair ~ 1 time in 50 and trips ~ 1 time in 70. (Oh, yeah - and quads one time in 9,800).

As was pointed out by a previous respondent, the problem here is not only the rarity of the event - you also have no lock on the pot when you do hit one of these miracles.

Nines and deuces require deft handling in a 5 or 6 way pot.

Translation: You'll tend to win a little when you win while losing alot when you get run down (or were never ahead to begin with).

Trip deuces are a good flop in terms of winning the hand but how much will you win on those rare occasions when this miracle flop (less than 1%) appears ? Any who stay will likely have a draw to beat you; when small pairs hit the flop in unraised pots even bad players see the "caution" sign light up.

Trip 9s are even worse - all that applies to trip 2s apply here only moreso.

*

Maybe the following [contrived] example will clarify things.

There used to be a site whose software was poorly designed and awash in glitches. If you sat out your small blind and posted it behind the button the server treated this post as live money - if there was no raise you could see the flop by merely completing the bet.

Assume you held 9-2/off against 6 limpers; let's further assume that the the button and both blinds had only enough chips to call (and could not raise).

Do you call here ?

If you answered "yes, without hesitation" - I'm afraid ya' just don't get it.

If you answered, "yes, but without enthusiasm" you do get it, and if you said, "fold" I hold no huge quarrel with your choice (though it is a profitable call).

If this is a marginal call at best WITH POSITION and with no chance of being raised, can you see where it would be an easy fold from bad position ?

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I had Q2o in SB with 6 limpers.

Flop would have given me top two pair

[/ QUOTE ]

I just put that in to make sure people were paying attention, lol.

That was a typo...

SP
How do you get top 2-pair with Q2o?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

LOL - Yeah, top two with Q-2/off - What a kidder. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

- We all know you meant Q-2/suited. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

UATrewqaz,

[ QUOTE ]

You said something like 92o wins 5.2% of the time vs. 9 random hands, which is 19-1 against.

But if 6 people limp you are getting immediate odds of 15-1 on your 1/2 SB call.

This of course is pre-factoring in any implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the problem is you don't know if "this" hand is in the 5.2% so it really needs to be lowered. I.E. running 2's or running 9's or running 9/2 or you flop a 2 and a 2 or 9 would come on the turn or river to give you the winner. Those miracles all make up that 5.2% and need to be discounted.

Also the flop could come K94 and your 9's would win at showdown but with 5 people in you usually can't feel comfortable betting OOP with SPNK.

So that 5.2% is pretty "generous" and really indicates best case scenario.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

[ QUOTE ]
What about the situation where it is folded around to you in the small blind, do you call with any two against the BB. Raise with say 89s. And if you call with any two, what then do you do if it gets raised behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really depends on how frequently the BB will raise, and how agressively he plays on the flop. Against a decent heads-up player, the SB is pretty much a raise or fold proposition. Against a passive player, completing with suited connectors and such may be profitable, especially if it's a 2/3 BB.

If i'm heads up in the BB, I will raise a wide range of hands if the SB completes and usually bet the flop, whether I hit or not. If I have absolute trash, I will take the free flop, bet if I get any pices, and bet about half the time when I don't hit.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

The 5.2% win rate for 9-2/off refers to hot-cold; it's accurate only if there is no post-flop action.

It also assumes that all callers have random hands.

- I've been fortunate enough to play in games with some truly horrible/clueless players but even this bunch would refuse to play the very worst of their startin hands . . . such as, oh, 8-2/off.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

[ QUOTE ]
Total trash like 72o, Q2o, J3o are 1:28 chance to hit a solid hands like 2 pair or better. So bascially the only time you play those is when the SB is 2/3. With 5 callers and the BB you are getting 21:1 on your hand right there. If you flop 2 pair or better can easily make the remaining bets later on down easily. With that many players someone hit.

[/ QUOTE ]


If a computer cannot successfully play by such formulae, and such formulaic approaches to the game, NEITHER CAN YOU.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

If i'm HU in a B&amp;M game I generally chop unless the table is short handed. When short handed please see CORed's post...

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

[ QUOTE ]


If you flop badly (which of course you will the overwhelming majority of the time) you simply check/fold.

The profibility of a hand is not only how often it wins but how much it wins.

It's clear that more people in the hand makes 92o worse and worse in terms of how OFTEN it will win, but it improves how MUCH it will win on the occasions it does.



[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of things I don't think anyone has pointed out yet. First off, if you flop a monster, who's going to call you? Second, even if you do flop 2 pair, your hand is quite vulnerable to getting counterfeitted. You assume that when you flop a monster, you'll be able to extract enough to make up for the more likely check/fold post-flop occurences. I disagree with that.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

The real question is, then, will the extremely rare times that your junk flops a monster ,and it holds up, make up for all the half bets you'd be pissing away in the sb, especially if you frequently play loose/limping tables. I'm not sure, but i think pzhon is saying that it wouldn't, or that completing sb w/ junk against large fields has an overall negative expectation.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

I will give this one a try!
Considering two cards that can't be used to make a str8 or a flush u can feel confident if u flop the following hands:

Two pair (using both of your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 1:49,
(however this will very likely give u 2 small pairs which are really easy to loose money with if u can't judge when they no longer are the best hand.)

Trips (using one of your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 1:73

A full house (using both of your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 1:1087


Quads (using one of your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 1:9799

If these are the kind of hands u plan to flop the combined odds are:
15:427 ~ 1:28,5

Plz correct me if I'm wrong...

So if u take that into account you never have odds if u don't have a good enough read to KNOW that u will get payed from some LAG player who don't know what he's doing and therefor giving u implied odds. So unless u KNOW that someone will pay u off.. throw the hand away.

That's my way of looking at it anyway.

GL

//SUND

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

It's also correct - in theory at least - to call with garbage if you are facing a field of rocks who muck way too often when they fail to nail the flop.

If your opponents ALWAYS call, call with trash and hope YOU hit the flop hard.

If your opponents [almost] NEVER call, call with trash and hope THEY don't [hit the flop hard].

*

This is more of an academic point; it doesn't work well in practice.

Calling with nothing then firing at the flop for drill solely because your opponents are squeaky tight is a poor long term plan -

If you do it repeatedly they won't stay rocks for long. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

Hey I didnt say I like to do it but with a 2/3 blind usualy any 2 cards will do, even the books say that. Your getting too much for your money.

Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage
 

How do you know when you have flopped a monster with a trash hand? If flop comes A22, you cant be sure your 92off is good. Even a sucker who plays J2off got you solid beat. Same problem with J5s. Flop a flush and you still dont know whether your flush is good. Flop AJ5 and someone with AJ will take your stack.
I find these hands difficult to play. Its seems almost impossible to know when to bet and when to check/fold in those rare cases you hit something.