10/20 hand reading exercise
 

ok full ring here, no reads really except that this guy has been raising quite a few times recently. but every time he has shown down a premium hand.

I (5700) limp, villain (covers) raises to 85 in CO, BB (800) calls and I call.

Flop (290): K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, I check, villain bets 220. BB calls, I raise to 800. Villain calls and BB folds.

Turn (2110): J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet 1400, villain calls.

River (4910): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I shove for 3400.

what hand range do you put me on (street by street maybe) and what do you need if you are villain to call this river?

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

what position did you limp here? Flop I put you on either a big draw here like Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (though this one might just call flop), or a good made hand like 444 (POSSIBLY KT). Turn nothing changes. River now you only hands I'd eliminate are KT, I'm not sure KT would fire allin on that river. no idea what villain can have here, probably AK or AA like a [censored], on that river I'd need QJ+ to call, but I'd have 3bet a set before then and probably wouldn't have called 1 pair hands on both flop and turn if it's that deep.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

Flop play is a common squeeze that she loves. Doesn't mean she has a hand. The river makes me think she somehow backed into a hand.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

sorry i limped in UTG+1.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

Preflop: 2 broadways, most probably suited. KQ, AJ, AQ.

Flop: Top pair, good kicker. KQ, KJ, AK.

Turn: KQ, KJ, AQ.

River: KQ, AK.

Villain needs a Queen to call.

Fishlips

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: 2 broadways, most probably suited. KQ, AJ, AQ.

Flop: Top pair, good kicker. KQ, KJ, AK.

Turn: KQ, KJ, AQ.

River: KQ, AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I'm just dense, but what about the river play excludes AQ? Are you thinking that it's too big a bet? Given the pot size, a stack with the AQ may well get a call.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

Not too much about his post makes sense.

My initial thoughts were A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] due to the bet sizing, but each time that I've started to formulate a reply I've started having doubts about everything that I wrote.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

haha, me too


then I talked to her directly, and thanked god I didn't actually reply to the post

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

At first I was thinking AQ of hearts. Now I'm thinking more like JQ suited?

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

utg limp/call the raisers deep and you know that so I'll say your calling his raise with alot of hands you normal wouldn't play oop any pp 22-jj, suited connecters not aks are all easy calling hands.

flop KhTh4c

You think he's a solid players so I think you'll give him credit for the K when he bets so I think you lead 3 bet a made hand here but the one factor that takes me of the draw hands b/s qjh is the pot is protected by the bb so your hand is made by this point (I think you figure the bb to come and villian also but you can't stop him from betting a big hand on a missed turn). I'll put you on jqh, set of 4's or 10's, kq, Ax flush. k10o 10jh 910h in that order

Turn jd

this bet if called makes the pot really big and any river call more likely and I don't see adding to the pot anymore without a made hand think you still got alot behind and can't really justify pushing your flush/stright draws so let's make a cc? Easy bet for the set's against a likely ak
aqh. set of tens letting you do the work for him. But I do think you bet aq I put you on 4's, 10's, Aqh,

River 5k in the pot you shove 3.4k Why not pots huge and he called up to here I strongly put you on 10's or 4's maybe aqh and even less likey a two pair hand. I think he calls q and, set of tens.

Correct me if I'm way off anywhere.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

Ugh. I did it again. Started writing and then realized I was wrong. I need to do this more often. I seem to learn a lot even if I can't explain anything.

The only thing that hasn't changed too much in my mind is that duck's flop raise looks like it doesn't want action (either to protect against a draw, or because she's on a draw herself). On the turn it now looks like she's trying to keep the guy in.

I went and wrote more again and deleted it because once again I keep contradicting myself.

It would really help though to get an idea of what sort of preflop range we're working with for a limp/call UTG+1. Most of the hands she posts simply involve betting and raising so when I see calling I just get confused. =(

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

As I was reading the post i thought 10J, not necessarily hearts.

Really interesting hand though.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

It think the most interesting part of the hand is the range we put VILLAIN on on the TURN.

hint hint

How many here think it's a queen?

Edit: As a side, since I forgot to ask you this... do you think you have enough FE to CR this turn with AhQh? I almost think you'd be CRing the turn with that hand, although now that I think about it villain is going to be unlikely to bet once you've squeezed the flop. So, never mind. There I go again.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

AQ of hearts seems the most resaonable, or KQ, but does she really limp those UTG+1? AQ suited is a pretty storng hand, and duck isnt a slowplayer, so id almost rule that hand out. QJ, she would probably fold unless it was suited, but I still think she folds that. I could see something like JT of hearts and river is a push becuase she knows villan wont call without the Q, but if I was villan, id call with a set of tens on up. 44 is also a possibility, but if that is the case, its a pretty ugly rive rand she prob. checks. My guess is total bluff with something like JT of hearts or a funky queen like TQ hearts or KQ.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

Unanswerable duck. You made a nonstandard play on at least one street. It is most likely you did that with AhQh. You could have another AQ or KQ or QJ and got hyper on the flop (and turn with the last), or have a set and gambooled on the turn. Or nothing and just hosed three barrels at him.

Presumably you had AhQh and this is not some random hand. I take it he called with AK or K-little, and perhaps picked you off from a spazz hand.

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

Typo on the AK. I meant AQ.

Fishlips

RESULTS
 

ok i'm liking the responses... matt flynn, you say this is unanswerable... i'm not looking for people to guess my specific hand (which happened to be Th8h), my play was definitely non-standard. i was more surprised by how long villain stayed with me than by anything else...

look at villain's actions - i raise two people in what looks like a protected pot (though bb was a bit of a donk and i did think he might actually fold) and yet he still calls... you'd think it would haver to be a strong hand. yes, i am on a draw here though i'm pretty sure i'd play a set the same way if i decided to check/raise, which i often do.

on the turn, i did not get there. This is one main point of why I posted the hand, I knew my turn bet was small. I was going to bet much more but then I looked at his stack and said I would give up if i didn't improve and was called unless a very scary river card came. but with this plan to fire again on a scary river card, i could bet much more on the turn if i wanted any decent fold equity on the river. a couple people here picked up on that. the small turn bet - bigger river bet (relative to pot size) unless the sizes are negligible is often the sign of a bluff, IMO. i try to avoid doing it but sometimes it is unavoifdable, which is why it is a good tell.

anyways seeing as how he didn't just shove, i figured he didn't have KK or TT, and he was preflop raiser. he could have had AQhh as well but i was pretty read to push the money in so i think on the turn he sticks it in there as well. so i couldn't give him credit foranything better than AA/AK (if anyone has a different idea, please enlighten me) and on the river I just prayed it wasn't KQ and shovedand he folded...

anyways that was my thought process about the whole turn bet idea, just thought i'd share and see if there's any feedback about ideas about that.

lastly, i was wondering what people do on the river with a set. let's say i had TT the whole time and this river came - do you still shove? i mean, the thing is... his range hasn't changed in my opinion (and it is still very narrow unless someone can shed some more light here) so a Q or a set isn't any different really unless he has a Q which is very unlikely. i've talked to some people who said they shove with a Q but not with a set - how does that make any sense when his range is still the same? so would people make a smaller value bet or just shove? ideas?

Re: RESULTS
 

Well after reading your post last night I decided that you were holding AQh. This is what I determined after your play on all streets. I considered K 10 intially, but that river push completely eliminated it.

The most important part about this entire thread is the fact that you do not even have close to an accurate read on this villain.

I play ALOT of 10/20 on PP and Villain just popped up this past week. Overall I would describe him as very poor and makes ALOT of terrible decisions.

As a result I like your play because Villain is unable to call this river bet without at least a straight.

I honestly think Villain had AA on this hand. I have seen him make weak ass raises in LP with AA.

Oh by the way I forgot to mention I was at the table and I thought the hand was interesting while I was watching it. To tell you the truth though, I thought you were bluffing on that river with a missed draw. There is no reason to be pushing that river unless you just caught a miracle card, or you are bluffing. Luckily for you Villain was a moron and has no clue, probably just didnt want to lose another $3K.

10 8 h treat you well last night?

Re: RESULTS
 

If I had a set I'll c/r, call a push or push I have to put strongly on ak,n seldom aa or once in a blue moon 10's. 10's always call a push ak folds alot(could be wrong here) and AA folds. I think theres more value in prehaps a value
bet 2k or so with a set. I bet more on the turn with a set then push what's left.

Re: RESULTS
 

Who is the villain? If it's who I'm thinking, why is he so bad?

Re: 10/20 hand reading exercise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Typo on the AK. I meant AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good; so it wasn't just me. I don't know why, but I parsed your post carefully, and did nothing but confuse myself. The prospect of a typo never crossed my mind. Amusing.