Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

Here's the situation:

Live game. 7-handed, $20 buyin, .25/50 blinds

Hero is holding A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in MP.

One limper in front of me, I make it 1.50 to go.
Everyone folds except the big blind, who just calls.

Villain is very aggressive, but not an awful player. Will call down some big hands with top pair, medium kicker. For the most part, a LAG.

Pot (about $4).
Flop comes:
Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets $4,
Hero raises to $8
Villain pushes all-in for something like $15 more

(pot is now at $24)

Hero ???

Also, what do you do in the same situation with nut draw and bottom pair instead of midpair?
...


(I folded here. The villain was VERY aggressive, which made me want to call. Did I make the right move?)

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

3:1 on a call, and you must be joking when you said you folded.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

easy call.

just call or raise more on the flop.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

I wouldn't think for more than a second before I called this against a PASSIVE player. Against a LAG there'd be no thought involved (well...maybe a little).

You have:
5 outs to two pair or trips
9 outs to the nut flush
a redraw to the nut straight

Yeah, some of these outs overlap so you don't really have 16 full outs, but I don't really want to do the math, and you get the point heh.

Last but not least, against a LAG you could very well be good with just the middle pair you already have.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't think for more than a second before I called this against a PASSIVE player. Against a LAG there'd be no thought involved (well...maybe a little).

You have:
5 outs to two pair or trips
9 outs to the nut flush
a redraw to the nut straight

Yeah, some of these outs overlap so you don't really have 16 full outs, but I don't really want to do the math, and you get the point heh.

Last but not least, against a LAG you could very well be good with just the middle pair you already have.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if it was the same situation with bottom pair instead of middle pair?

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

[ QUOTE ]
3:1 on a call, and you must be joking when you said you folded.

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How is it 3:1 ?
It's a $15 call into a $24 pot. That's not even 1:2.

The way I figured it, I had:
- 9 diamonds that could help me
- a few outs that could come up with some straight draws (would need runner runner)
- 2 T's that would give me trips
- other options for 2 pair (4 outs)

With flush overlap, I'm looking at about 14-15 outs here.

The pot odds aren't great, as he's fully committed and I'm getting no implied odds at all.

thoughts?

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

[ QUOTE ]
What if it was the same situation with bottom pair instead of middle pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd call the floor manager because there are two 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the deck [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

In seriousness though, having bottom pair dramatically changes this hand. You've lost your redraw to the straight. The 5 outs you have to two-pair/trips are now seriously tainted (the 3's are easily counterfeited). And the odds of you being ahead have been reduced to almost nothing. All you have left, really, is the flush draw and the other two A's, and you don't have the pot-odds to call.

So unless villain is a completely mindless LAG who'd push with 23o (and, yes, I'm sure we've all seen them on the odd occassion), I'd probably fold.

Edit: Having done the math on the pot-odds, I want to change my mind to call. 4:1 is enough for just the flush draw, not to mention any other draws that are out.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if it was the same situation with bottom pair instead of middle pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd call the floor manager because there are two 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the deck [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

In seriousness though, having bottom pair dramatically changes this hand. You've lost your redraw to the straight. The 5 outs you have to two-pair/trips are now seriously tainted (the 3's are easily counterfeited). And the odds of you being ahead have been reduced to almost nothing. All you have left, really, is the flush draw and the other two A's, and you don't have the pot-odds to call.

So unless villain is a completely mindless LAG who'd push with 23o (and, yes, I'm sure we've all seen them on the odd occassion), I'd probably fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you explain these straight 'redraws'? I'm not quite understanding how it matters.

As far as I can tell, my best straight hand is now:
A_Q_T , with the queen and ten already on the board. With this call, I'm going to need a K AND J to make it.... which is about a 3% chance to happen.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

[ QUOTE ]
How is it 3:1 ?
It's a $15 call into a $24 pot. That's not even 1:2

[/ QUOTE ]

My math:
$4 in the pot + Villain bets $4 = $8
Hero raises to $8 = $16
Villain raises another $15 = $31

Hero must call another $7 to match villain's bet.

Looks like a little over 4:1 to me.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the situation:

Live game. 7-handed, $20 buyin, .25/50 blinds

Hero is holding A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in MP.

One limper in front of me, I make it 1.50 to go.
Everyone folds except the big blind, who just calls.

Villain is very aggressive, but not an awful player. Will call down some big hands with top pair, medium kicker. For the most part, a LAG.

Pot (about $4).
Flop comes:
Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets $4,
Hero raises to $8
Villain pushes all-in for something like $15 more

(pot is now at $24)

Hero ???

Also, what do you do in the same situation with nut draw and bottom pair instead of midpair?
...


(I folded here. The villain was VERY aggressive, which made me want to call. Did I make the right move?)

[/ QUOTE ]

11 outs, assuming the ace isn't a clean out. 40% ish, given the pot very easy no brainer call. 12 outs assuming he has top two, with the ace being an out. A full 14 outs assuming both 10 and Ace are live outs. Only time you don't call here if you KNOW he has a set.

Makes no difference middle or bottom pair if you figure yourself to be behind and needing to make either flush, trips or two pair to win. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's pushing his flush draw.

I think this is a bone-easy call.