Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

I've been looking through my PT data and have realised that I'm losing money with 66, 55, 44, 33, 22.

I've been trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong & I have a suspect. I think I play small PP correctly in position but I think I'm messing up OOP...

The question is what do you do with a small pocket pair in the blinds when facing a pre-flop raise (no limpers. no cold callers). I know there are many factors to consider here but it's those factors that I'd like to discuss...

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

against someone that raises far too much and a PFR>5 BB I fold it. If a player is overly weaktight but has a wide range preflop I also fold it. My theory being that he's often not raising solid hands he wants to showdown and I can't stack him nearly enough to make this preflop call profitable.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

I have found that PP's under 6 are usually losers in EP when you are facing a PFR. You don't hit the set that often (1 to 7) and when you don't it is usually a check fold. I don't think the implied odds are that great either for your hand unless you hit a nice flop that hits his hand as well.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

i normally fold with anything less then 66 vs a raise, unless SB or Button raises me, i go with my reads. If no one raises i limp in and take it from there.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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I have found that PP's under 6 are usually losers in EP when you are facing a PFR. You don't hit the set that often (1 to 7) and when you don't it is usually a check fold. I don't think the implied odds are that great either for your hand unless you hit a nice flop that hits his hand as well.

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with <50BB stacks that's my thoughts as well... Is this the general consensus? Any reference from trusted 2+2 authors / high-limit players?

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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I have found that PP's under 6 are usually losers in EP when you are facing a PFR. You don't hit the set that often (1 to 7) and when you don't it is usually a check fold. I don't think the implied odds are that great either for your hand unless you hit a nice flop that hits his hand as well.

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with <50BB stacks that's my thoughts as well... Is this the general consensus? Any reference from trusted 2+2 authors / high-limit players?

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6max or full?

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

6-max

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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6-max

[/ QUOTE ] raise them yourself and see how that works.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

what kind of an answer is that?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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what kind of an answer is that?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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sorry, i didn't remember the original post, i thought you were talking about pp's oop in general, not only in the blinds.

Answering your question, if the raiser is tight call, if not (and if he raises late) try reraising or poting a low card flop.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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sorry, i didn't remember the original post, i thought you were talking about pp's oop in general, not only in the blinds.

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No problem [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Answering your question, if the raiser is tight call, if not (and if he raises late) try reraising or poting a low card flop.

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hmmm... don't like it. I think that's far too aggro...

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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with <50BB stacks that's my thoughts as well... Is this the general consensus? Any reference from trusted 2+2 authors / high-limit players?

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yawwwn...this has been discussed ad naseum. the ciaffone 5/10 rule for drawing hands is the accepted standard. if you are facing a raise less than 5% of your stack its an easy call, more than 10% it's an easy fold. between that use your judgement. you hit a set 12% of the time, this is why the rule works, you are putting a rule of thumb judgement of the implied odds for the hand. If you call for 10% of your stack you must stack the opponent every time you hit for it to be a profitable preflop call.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

Mercman,

I know the 5-10 rule... I have been using it until now - I just wonder whether it works out of position as well... It just seems to me that it's real hard to stack someone with a set when OOP... so what percentage of the stack would you call? 5%? or less?

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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Mercman,

I know the 5-10 rule... I have been using it until now - I just wonder whether it works out of position as well... It just seems to me that it's real hard to stack someone with a set when OOP... so what percentage of the stack would you call? 5%? or less?

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it's not hard to stack someone out of position, sets aren't exactly the kind of hand you should have problems playing oop. Just bet into him and all that stuff you probably allready know

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

so what's my leak? why am I losing with 66-22? What could be the possible reasons?

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

Sets are pretty much the easiest hands to play out of position, if you're losing with them you probably don't have a big enough sample size.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

I'm not losing with sets, I'm losing with small pocket pairs.

edit: I suck at poker but not THAT bad.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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Sets are pretty much the easiest hands to play out of position, if you're losing with them you probably don't have a big enough sample size.

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that's very true, sample size is fundamental here, you may not have a leak at all.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

10K database... not huge... but the fact that the trend can be seen on all small pocket pairs is quite worrying...

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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Mercman,

I know the 5-10 rule... I have been using it until now - I just wonder whether it works out of position as well... It just seems to me that it's real hard to stack someone with a set when OOP... so what percentage of the stack would you call? 5%? or less?

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it's not hard to stack someone out of position, sets aren't exactly the kind of hand you should have problems playing oop. Just bet into him and all that stuff you probably allready know

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Well then you're shaky on the use your judgement part. Yes out of position (as I originally posted) I will not call more than 5% if they are a loose raisor or if they are weaktight.

And yes, it is quite hard to stack a decent play out of position with a set, here's why. A standard PFR of 4BB and call gives you 8BB in the pot. A PSB of 8 puts 24BB in the pot. Typically you bet 2/3 on a non draw type turn, so that puts (16 bet and call) 56BB in the river. Most river bets are for 1/2-2/3 pot for value if you want them to be called. That's still not 100BB and that's still not +EV. That's assuming you just bet and are called on a non draw heavy board, although there are other lines and draw heavy boards, there are also the times the villain folds to your first bet to factor in as well. So out of position I recommenend no more than a 5BB call unless you have some sort of read on the player. If you are against someone thatoverplays one pair that is obviously different, but I am talking about a semi-decent player.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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Mercman,

I know the 5-10 rule... I have been using it until now - I just wonder whether it works out of position as well... It just seems to me that it's real hard to stack someone with a set when OOP... so what percentage of the stack would you call? 5%? or less?

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it's not hard to stack someone out of position, sets aren't exactly the kind of hand you should have problems playing oop. Just bet into him and all that stuff you probably allready know

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Well then you're shaky on the use your judgement part. Yes out of position (as I originally posted) I will not call more than 5% if they are a loose raisor or if they are weaktight.

And yes, it is quite hard to stack a decent play out of position with a set, here's why. A standard PFR of 4BB and call gives you 8BB in the pot. A PSB of 8 puts 24BB in the pot. Typically you bet 2/3 on a non draw type turn, so that puts (16 bet and call) 56BB in the river. Most river bets are for 1/2-2/3 pot for value if you want them to be called. That's still not 100BB and that's still not +EV. That's assuming you just bet and are called on a non draw heavy board, although there are other lines and draw heavy boards, there are also the times the villain folds to your first bet to factor in as well. So out of position I recommenend no more than a 5BB call unless you have some sort of read on the player. If you are against someone thatoverplays one pair that is obviously different, but I am talking about a semi-decent player.

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a semi-decent player usually raises you flop bet with an overpair or tptk so that helps...but you still won't stack him unless you have a very good image and the board helps you. Anyway, I never had a problem just using 5/10 and/or commum sense, 10k is probably just too small of a db

PS: I hope you're not looking at the money you're making while including the money you pay for the blinds.

Re: Small Pocket Pairs in the blinds (theory discussion)
 

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10K database... not huge... but the fact that the trend can be seen on all small pocket pairs is quite worrying...

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.. 10K is nothing. Come back in another 30-40k atleast and we'll see. You miss with pairs most of the time, so sample sizes are even more important if you want an accurate view of how profitable you are with them compared to other types of hands.