WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

All along they have been telling us that there were 5661 entrants in the main event.

Now, today, they say there are 5619 entrants. Something smells really really bad here.

It took them 3 days to figure out the numbers. That's, (pardon my French) $425,000 fuggin' dollars.

Someone suggested that the discrepancy was due to underage online qualifiers - if so WHERE IS THE MONEY. I didn't enter any qualifying events, but I'm sure many of you did, and if so your money was stolen from you.

As you can tell, I'm really upset with this - I have run many many tournaments (albeit not as large). You count the money right away and divide - nothing too difficult. To be off by $420,000 is INEXCUSEABLE.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

42 people weren't legal, or whatever. Is that so hard to believe?

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]

Someone suggested that the discrepancy was due to underage online qualifiers - if so WHERE IS THE MONEY. I didn't enter any qualifying events, but I'm sure many of you did, and if so your money was stolen from you.



[/ QUOTE ]

Actually its not stolen from since you had already lost it to some kid dumb enough to think that he could get a refund. Its been stolen from a kid who deserved to get it stolen.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

OK so where is the $420,000?

If you entered an online tourney and lost, that money is somewhere.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

The site retains the money, it says in Stars'/Party's rules somewhere.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Word on the street here is that Mike Sexton just got himself a brand new whip.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
Word on the street here is that Mike Sexton just got himself a brand new whip.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really?? He resigned Shana for another year??

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
The site retains the money, it says in Stars'/Party's rules somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if it says so, maybe it does, but it's really really irritating. I'm not one to get angry fast, but if there was a qualifier on some $160 DS I played, that was afterwards found to be 16 yo or something, I don't understand how stars can keep the money. Sure he's an idiot, but can stars just take ~$12,000 (from this one DS alone!) to their own pocket like its theirs?? Honestly, I'd feel much better if they'll give it to the kid or something... I find it quite amazing, as the OP here does.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Well, that means the person lied about their age in the beginning, and are breaking the law. I don't see how an underaged person would be dumb enough to try to qualify for the WSOP. I think the site is correct in reserving the right to take the money away.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

At least for cases of collusion and other cheating, Stars has redistributed some of the money in the accounts among the players that were affected by the cheating.

I don't know if this same type of policy applies if an underage player wins a satellite like this.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, that means the person lied about their age in the beginning

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean at the beginning? It's not like they were asking for your age at the beginning of a WSOP qualifier. Maybe you mean when he first deposited money in Stars? But then he could have been confused about the age limitation for the WSOP, and not deliberately lying about it.

Still it's very strange, IMO, that those 420K just go to Stars. These are 420K that come from the pockets of 100% (or very close to it) legitimate Stars' players. That's a lot of money, coming from our own pockets... unreal.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Yes, they aren't even supposed to be playing online anyways. And being 21 for the WSOP should be a given.

I do not think it is that odd that about .08% of the field that signed up were underage.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

You forget that the money came from your own pockets and then went into somebody else's before getting confiscated.

It's not like they stopped a double shootout because somebody was 19 and took the prize money. The underage person first beat you, so they're confiscating the money from him, not you.

I agree with Time, I don't see the problem with doing this.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, they aren't even supposed to be playing online anyways. And being 21 for the WSOP should be a given.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You forget that the money came from your own pockets and then went into somebody else's before getting confiscated.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to the logic presented here, there isn't any difference if they take any money won by any <21 player in any normal online MTT and the money "confiscated" here. There isn't any difference in regard to their T&C, if I understand this whole business correctly. Don't any of you find this strange and highly arbitrary? Sure those underaged players can't play the WSOP because of US laws, but if so many underaged players DID play WSOP sats and obviously some of them qualified, it really looks like it's something that could have been anticipated.

I understand the point about the money not taken directly from me during the tourney, but if I knew that there's a chance some kid wins a DS I'm playing, and the money goes straight to Stars, I think I would have treated it differently... and I really didn't know, as I'm sure many others didn't know that's the way it's played. For some reason, I think that there are more reasonable solutions for this, like in cases of collusion, that were mentioned here.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

I came 2nd twice in double shootouts.

I am extremely pissed if Stars is really keeping the cash.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Possibly, but it wouldn't be right to give the underaged kid financial compensation.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
I came 2nd twice in double shootouts.

I am extremely pissed if Stars is really keeping the cash.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have a very similar expirience. Played a nice number of DSs, was very close to winning it couple of times, but unfortunately didn't make it. I have no problem with these results, obviously, that's poker, but as you say, if the money went to stars in some of these cases, something is definitely wrong here.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a very similar expirience. Played a nice number of DSs, was very close to winning it couple of times, but unfortunately didn't make it. I have no problem with these results, obviously, that's poker, but as you say, if the money went to stars in some of these cases, something is definitely wrong here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that Lee Jones is pretty busy right now, but he needs to address this in this forum.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

So you would want to find the event the player qualified through, and refund everyone? Isn't that a bit drastic?

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
Possibly, but it wouldn't be right to give the underaged kid financial compensation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it: suppose in a certain DS there are 2 players left. Prize pool is about 12K (the package is actually worth significantly more, with the hotel and all), you have equal stacks. You lose it (the details don't matter, it's only an illustration). The other player wins the whole thing, then they find he's 18, they take the money, nobody wins anything, nobody tells you anything. What do you think about it?

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

It it really more drastic than going back thru ring game history to determine players that were affected by collusion, and refunding bets out of the closed accounts?

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Sure, it would make more sense. I have a hunch if you email Party/Stars about it, they will give you some good reasons why they keep the money. No, it isn't right, but what can we do?

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Yeah ... I mostly agree. Stars handles most of these type of issues very well, so I'm sure they have a decent reason for handling it how they do.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

It would be actually interesting to how they would respond to it if someone emailed them about it. If no one is up for it, I will.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

I didn't play any of the qualifiers on there, because I knew I couldn't go to the ME this year. If I had, I would.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would be actually interesting to how they would respond to it if someone emailed them about it. If no one is up for it, I will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I vote for you. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'd do it myself, but I'm not the best option for writing such emails, as my English isn't my first language, and I always manage to write something that comes somewhat more rude and offensive than what I actually mean... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be actually interesting to how they would respond to it if someone emailed them about it. If no one is up for it, I will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I vote for you. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'd do it myself, but I'm not the best option for writing such emails, as my English isn't my first language, and I always manage to write something that comes somewhat more rude and offensive than what I actually mean... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sent. I'll notify you what they say when the repsond.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Here is their safe response.

"Hello Josh,

Please note players have been informed
that they must be 21 in order to play the satellites or they will forfeit
the seat.

Regards,

Christian
PokerStars Support Team"

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

I'm not sure what to think about this. If the winner of some other event was found to be cheating, I think in most cases the prize would go to the 2nd place finisher. Now if the rules clearly state that they will confiscate the money if the winner is ineligible to play then I guess there isn't much you can do about it, but it would sure be good PR for the sites to make the effort to give the prizes to a runner up (Can you tell i finished second in a sat?)

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is their safe response.

"Hello Josh,

Please note players have been informed
that they must be 21 in order to play the satellites or they will forfeit
the seat.

Regards,

Christian
PokerStars Support Team"

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for sending it. This reply obviously has nothing new about it. They probably don't feel they owe anybody any kind of explanation about all this. The problem is, IMO, that simply taking the prizes out of the underages players is like taking prize money out of colluding players, without giving any of it back to players who suffered from the collusion. That's why it bothers me. OK, so the kids are stupid, or liers, or clueless, or cheaters. If, for instance they found that a winner of a MTT hacked your comp while playing and saw your cards when you were HU against him, does it make sense to keep 1st place money at Stars instead of giving it to the 2nd player or redistributing it among FT players or something? What can be done about it?

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Some of those kids are probably just Gamboholicing their way to multiple entries and ignoring the first 12K. It's probably still +EV given the play caliber.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Dead people and seriously ill people can get refunds. This could be part of it.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

So all a site has to do is fill a tournament with "seemingly" inelible players, and if one of them should happen to win everyone is f****ed?

Re: Stop Your Crying...
 

Stars has their ass covered under T&C.It would be more productive to ELIMINATE the source of problem rather than trying to come up with a solution that is not going to please everybody. Example: fourth place finisher is not going to be happy because he got knocked out by underage kid and may have won.Why shouls second place get seat .

No underage kids playing.Problem solved.

An explanation from the WSOP TD
 

From this article on RGP.

Kevin...

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

well if you don't mind paying XXX dollars for a tourney and having no prize be awarded, you really must be a nice guy.

I guess I am more mercenary than that.

The situation last year
 

http://www.finaltablepoker.com/view_...?article_id=65

Since I think you have to register to see the site (even though it's no longer in operation), I'll quote the important part here:

[ QUOTE ]
Leaving the official, the non-official, and the financial reality aside for a moment, if you’ve been following along, you already understand the Day Four/Day Five dichotomy, because you already know about the two Day Ones. Unless you’ve located the following information elsewhere, you don’t know about the 2,576 vs. 2,536 dichotomy. The number of chips in play was so much LOWER than the number of players in play should have owned, just about $400,000, that I worried about some kind of chip miscount problem.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It turns out that the 30-40 players (nobody is ever going to know exactly how many; I’m going to explain the gulf in a moment) who were paid entries and whose stacks sat out there getting blinded off until they were gone (gosh, wouldn’t it have been nice to draw one of those tables) contributed to the lofty total.

I asked Tournament Director Matt Savage about this.

INTERNET LIKELY SOURCE OF NO-SHOWS

“It’s never happened before,” Savage said, “but looking back at it, in retrospect it shouldn’t be so surprising. A lot of the Internet companies had rules about playing only wearing their colors that you could have had some conflicts. You also could have had underage players win seats on the Internet and then realize they couldn’t come play. With the Internet contributing such a large percentage of the field, it really shouldn’t be that surprising.”

The reason no one is really sure about the number of non-starters is that after Day Four, the gap was $405,000, while after Day Five, the gap was $305,000, which makes it seem more likely that only 31 players failed to arrive, and that someone miscounted his chips AGAINST his own best interests on Day Four. Right now, the totals show $25,365,000 chips in play, while theoretically there should be $25,760,000.

Make sure you understand this. Chips have NOT been “imported” into the tournament. In a novel situation, there are fewer chips in play than there theoretically should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kevin...

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Where did you find out that Stars took any money? If there were indeed any disqualified players it's Harrah's that will keep the money not Stars.

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

Put a different slant on it, I bubbled 6th with 5 paid seats in a party tournament, if one was underage, I'd like my deposit please. Just kidding but that would be Christmas in July if it worked. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: WSOP numbers off by $420,000
 

I don't think the sites or Harrah's are confiscating any entry fees, if anything the underager's are just getting blinded off (atleast that is how it worked last year).