Why is only Hold Em NL?
Omaha is played at most PL from what I can tell and stud always played at fixed limits....
Why don't "NL" Omaha and 7 Stud exist? Are the games just so fundamentally different NL wouldn't work? |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Because if someone goes all in preflop the difference between hand strengths is so negligible that it would turn it into a crapshoot. Even AAJT DS in omaha isn't more than a 60% favorite over any other hand. 7stud is even worse unless you start with trips.
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Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Absolute Poker has NL Omaha Hi/Lo and Omaha High. But why not have NL tourny's at the WSOP. Good point. When we play O8 at home, we play NL b/c figuring out the PL is too much work. Any one have any good advice of an easy way to do this? I can't tell you how many times we cancelled the PL idea because of the work.
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Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
7-stud has the additional problem of having 5 betting rounds, and that is thought by most to be problematic with a big-bet format. There's a variant called "Mississippi" that combines the last two rounds and therefore allows for a more comfortable 4-round betting structure, but that seems to me to be a fundamentally altered game.
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Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Big bet Stud is commonly spread in England, but rarely Stateside. The main reason is becuz the river card is down, which makes NL Stud way more dangerous than HE. For example if u have an ace high flush at the river in HE on an unpaired board u know your hand is good, in Stud even without a pair showing your opponent could have a hand as strong as quads.
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Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Institute a rule wherby you have only four options as to the size of your bet and make these options:
Check, 1/4 pot, 1/2 pot or the pot. This will make tracking the size of the pot much easier since there will be no "odd-sized" bets to calculate. It also makes it slightly easier if both blinds are the same size. (A few of the online sites do this now for NL holdem so you won't be "wrecking the purity of the game" [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]). If the game still moves to slowly try replacing the blinds with antes while also using the 4-option rule. - If the game has blinds of 1-2 change this to no blinds with a .25 or .50 ante per player, or have the dealer ante for everyone. If all else fails employ a rule such as that used in Scrabble. Allow anyone to bet any amount they want at any time but penalize them when they attempt to overbet the pot if anyone spots them. Also penalize the whistle-blower if it turns out the bet is within the allowed limits. (Loser of the challenge pays the bettor the amount of the disparity or a set amount such as "X" number of big blinds). - If you choose to employ this arrangement expect the most frequent challenger to soon start insisting everyone "use their coasters and eat with a knife and a fork". [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Drawing hands play a much bigger roll in Omaha then they do in Texas Hold'em. With a NL structure, Omaha often devolves into the player with the made nuts automatically pushing to keep all of the draws out. The PL structure allows for much more strategic play.
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Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Maybe if all the SNGs do someday turn into eV-neutral pushbot fests (as has been hypothesized on this board), you will see a switch to pot-limit. That would be interesting.
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Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
[ QUOTE ]
Institute a rule wherby you have only four options as to the size of your bet and make these options: Check, 1/4 pot, 1/2 pot or the pot. [/ QUOTE ] Not a good idea. If you take away the opportunity to bet any amount up to the pot, you take away the ability for people to make mistakes. My suggestion is just to deal with a slower game until everyone gets used to counting the pot. You can make it a little easier by going with two blinds of the same size. If you go with two differing blind sizes, just don't count the SB in the size of the pot for bet size purposes. Also, until people are comfortable, you could stack the pot into stacks of a specific size so you can tell at a glance how much is there. It's not ideal but will speed up the game. Regards, T |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Any structure will work if enough people agree that it works.
P-L stud is played in both Europe and Austrailia; I've never seen N-L stud or N-L holdem (aside from the games at Absolute) but 20 years ago I'd never seen any type of Omaha. Tradition dies hard - nowhere moreso than poker. * As to the claim that omaha and stud feature starting hands that are run extremely close in value - true for omaha, not true for stud. (We also need to define "close"; it's true that matchups where the better hand is more than a 60/40 favorite are virtually non-existent in omaha but if I can repeatedly get my chips in the middle with a 60-40 or even a 55-45 edge I like my chances for winding up with all the chips). A higher pair wins ~ 2/3 of the time vs lower pair in stud if the lower pair's kicker is lower in rank than the higher pair and ~ 2/5 of the time with an overcard kicker. A 3-flush is a huge dog to a pair unless the 3-flush has 3 o/c's to the pair or 2 o/c's with straight potential. (And who is going to call a big bet with a small pair). In holdem, when one player pushes allin and is called you frequently see pair vs. 2 overcard confrontations - hardly a David-Goliath type battle. If there does exist a well thought out reason for the dearth of P-L (or the non-existence of N-L) stud it might have to do with the HUGE edge the expert has over the "beginner" (see: nitwit). I have a friend who used to find (and participate in) alot of P-L stud while overseas back in the 70's. This person is wont to neither lie nor embelish so my inclination is to take as gospel his claim that in 100+ sessions he never booked a loser. The expert's edge in N-L or P-L is big in all forms of poker but perhaps nowhere as much as in stud. (N-L hi-draw also crucifies the weak player, especially when all the chips go in before the draw. Coincidentally, limit hi-draw is also unforgiving to weaker players; I wonder if that has anything to do with why you never see either anymore. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] ) |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
In a good no-limit game you should get a lot of information about your hand before the first betting round (or, as others have said, starting hands should not be too close in value) and you should have a lot of information about other players' hands before showdown. In the best limit games, neither of these things are true.
The classic no-limit game, that is silly when played at limit, is five card stud. You know 40% of your hand before the first betting round, and you know 80% of everyone's hand by showdown. The classic limit game, which does not play well no-limit, is five card draw. While you know five cards before the first round, you typically throw away two or three of them; and because you pick the ones to throw away, the cards you get have more information than dealt cards. You know almost nothing about other players' hands at showdown, just what you can guess from their draw and betting. Seven card stud high and hold'em play well either way. Omaha, draw and any lowball or high low game play best at limit. |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
I believe the WSOP has an event for NL 2-7 draw, but I've never heard of this being played in cash games.
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Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Deuce-seven is rarely played, period.
When it is, however it's almost always played N-L. |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
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Even AAJT DS in omaha isn't more than a 60% favorite over any other hand. [/ QUOTE ] Over 2222 it's a 100% favorite. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
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Even AAJT DS in omaha isn't more than a 60% favorite over any other hand. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, it is. The following are matchups against random hands. http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396148 As Js Ah Th 0.750 Ks 4s Jd 8h 0.250 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396151 As Js Ah Th 0.719 5c 9d 5h 3h 0.281 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396152 As Js Ah Th 0.790 Qs Qc 8d 2h 0.210 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396156 As Js Ah Th 0.682 5s Ac 7c Qh 0.318 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396158 As Js Ah Th 0.661 6s 3s 8c 9h 0.339 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396164 As Js Ah Th 0.729 Ts 6c Jh 4h 0.271 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396166 As Js Ah Th 0.665 9s Kd 6d 4d 0.335 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396171 As Js Ah Th 0.774 Kc Ad Td 6h 0.226 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396176 As Js Ah Th 0.698 7s Jc 9c 7h 0.302 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396179 As Js Ah Th 0.689 8s Tc 2c 3d 0.311 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396180 As Js Ah Th 0.664 2s 3c Qd 5d 0.336 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1396181 As Js Ah Th 0.680 4c 7d 2d Kh 0.320 |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
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Deuce-seven is rarely played, period. When it is, however it's almost always played N-L. [/ QUOTE ] This is just plain incorrect. |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
There are NL Omaha games on 'Stars. I know of some home games that play PL stud, and Lowball draw in both variants is often played NL.
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Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Where is this game played limit on even a semi-regular basis ?
I am talking about straight 2-7, not triple draw. |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
Omaha is best played at POT LIMIT----Draw and LOWBALL are GREAT POT LIMIT games
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Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
I played the NL Omaha 8 on Stars, and it's just crap. I won a bunch of money, but the game is ridiculous. Get a good hand pre-flop, push all your crap in and pray.
Plus, I don't think any hand is a real dominating favorite pre-flop like in holdem...so you could lose a lot in a hurry trying to bully with a 60-40 favorite. |
Re: Why is only Hold Em NL?
[ QUOTE ]
Absolute Poker has NL Omaha Hi/Lo and Omaha High. But why not have NL tourny's at the WSOP. Good point. When we play O8 at home, we play NL b/c figuring out the PL is too much work. Any one have any good advice of an easy way to do this? I can't tell you how many times we cancelled the PL idea because of the work. [/ QUOTE ] just stack the chips, when someone says "i bet/raise pot" just match the pot? |
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