Face up muck?
 

Saw this tonight:

It's heads up when the river comes, bringing the fourth spade and a possible broadway. Player A bets out, as he did on every street. Player B is thinking when Player A says "Your kings are no good - got a set, huh?" Player B 3-bet preflop, raised after a King came on the flop, and raised the turn.

Player B looks disgusted and slams down his pocket kings FACE UP showing that he indeed had the set. After maybe 3 or 4 seconds, he quickly reached for chips and says "call". It turns out that Player B also hit a king high flush on the river. Player A had broadway on the turn.

Player A freaks, claiming that Player B "mucked" because he tabled his cards before calling his bet. The guy really did slam down his cards in typical giant douche fashion, messing up the board.

It looked to me like Player B conceeded the pot thinking he only had 3 kings, but then realized he hit a flush so he quickly grabbed chips to call the bet.

Floor rules that the flush is good and Player B gets the pot.

Re: Face up muck?
 

If the dealer didn't grab them and muck them like he/she is supposed to, then the hand is live HEADS UP. When it's heads up, most rooms allow you to show your cards in CASH games only.

Re: Face up muck?
 

Yeah, it was a cash game and the floor made the right call. The guy who slammed his cards down was such an ahhhole. I secretly wished he had mucked face down or the dealer had immediately swept his cards into the muck. But hey, the best hand won in the end. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Face up muck?
 

The bottom line is that you didn't say anything to indicate that the hand was clearly dead. Despite any lack of good ettiquette, or any abundance of bungholio-esque behavior, if a hand is live, then it lives.

al

Re: Face up muck?
 

Player A is an idiot. Player B didn't muck, he tabled it. Even Player A says he 'tabled' it.

His hand isn't dead because he exposed it as this isn't a tourney. The hand also wasn't killed by the dealer. Given that it was 3-4 seconds and the dealer didn't retrieve his cards, the dealer, imo, knows he hasn't released his hand yet to be mucked.

b

Re: Face up muck?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The guy who slammed his cards down was such an ahhhole.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know...Player A isn't exactly stellar either.

b

Re: Face up muck?
 

" bungholio-esque"

BIMO

Re: Face up muck?
 

The fact that Player A tried to win "like that" shows what kind of weasel we are dealing with. I don't know how much was in the pot, but that was lame.

Player B was an a$$hole, but he was one with a flush!

Re: Face up muck?
 

The cards speak.

Re: Face up muck?
 

Here Player B's hand is live under most cash game rulebooks. It appears he didn't release his hand - even Player A stated that he merely tabled his hand.

BUT.....

.......this sort of thing can evolve beyond gamesmenship into really unseemly angleshooting that IMHO isn't good for the growth of the game.

Example: Novice Player A bets, Player B turns his hand face up with just a little bit of forward motion. "Little bit" is a judgement call, perhaps a matter of opinion, the real story depends on what people saw and so on. Novice Player A in good faith believed Player B is folding - perhaps he tosses his hand away, maybe breathes a sigh of relief because he was bluffing, shows his hand thinking it was uncalled and he has a winner. If you play no limit you see this sort of thing quite often.

Now Player B calls. We have a dispute and someone (perhaps the whole table) is not going to be happy.

Why is allowing this good for the game?

OR....

..... would a rule saying, "when facing a bet either turning your hand face up or pushing it torward the muck will (may?) result in a dead hand" be better?

~ Rick

Re: Face up muck?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is allowing this good for the game?

OR....

..... would a rule saying, "when facing a bet either turning your hand face up or pushing it torward the muck will (may?) result in a dead hand" be better?

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

It adds another demension of play, it is interesting and calls for a "rush" in emotions. All of which are good for the game.

Sure it can be used for angle shooting. Most of the dealers at the room I play the most at will ask the person opening their hand if they are folding or reach to muck the hand. It becomes very clear, very quickly if the intent is to open fold, or simply open the hand. It is rare that such a thing would happen without a big call needed and most people are going to protect their hand in a situation like this.

I personally would not be too happy if the rules changed making my opened hand dead/mucked. It is a tool. A tool that I do not used often, but when I have, I can honestly say it has made/saved me lots of money.