this stuff pisses me off
 

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Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

I'd raise the turn.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

i think that i would raise the turn, call a 3-bet, and bet the river if checked to.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

I raise turn, sometimes raise flop. If he 3bets the turn, I weep and timeout while pulling my hair out.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

yeah, I thought about that too (to protect against a flush draw), but it seems like unknowns fold to turn raises in 5/10 quite often. your line would have saved me a bet though [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think that i would raise the turn, call a 3-bet, and bet the river if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and call the river if villain bets it.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

It's not necessarily about protecting against a flush draw, its about maximizing against drawing hands. They will often just check and fold on the river, so you miss out on a BB.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think that i would raise the turn, call a 3-bet, and bet the river if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and call the river if villain bets it.

[/ QUOTE ]That seems waaaayyyy too loose for me.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

raise turn, sometimes I raise flop and cap it.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

I always raise the flop on a board like this, to disguise when I am raiseing for a free card on a draw and with a made hand. This probably goes unnoticed by 90% of my opponents.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

I've heard a lot of arguments for raising the turn on this board, and a few for raising the flop.
I think the best play is to raise and cap the flop, because that way a pair of tens will call you down most likely, and anything that beats you will three bet and lead the turn or call and c/r the turn, giving you an easy passage out of the hand. Not to mention you charge those flush draws an extra sb. Raising the turn isn't that much worse either though I guess, except a pair of tens will most likely fold here, and if you get 3-bet you want to fold but are practically pot-committed to see the river (where you will then have to fold UI, IMO).

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

[ QUOTE ]
anything that beats you will three bet and lead the turn or call and c/r the turn, giving you an easy passage out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen worse Ks do this often enough - especially 3bet the flop - that its nuts to fold the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn isn't that much worse either though I guess, except a pair of tens will most likely fold here, and if you get 3-bet you want to fold but are practically pot-committed to see the river (where you will then have to fold UI, IMO).

[/ QUOTE ]
Many times a T will call down after the turn c/r, even if you don't have a particularly aggressive image. I agree that I'd call a 3bet and fold river, though, which sucks, even if it is correct. Does anyone care to do the math assuming a turn 3bet is always at least two pair?

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

You know I would have three bet you on the river too, and not necessarily with a hand that is beating yours. From the way you played it I would put you on a flush draw that tried to buy the pot on the end.

By just calling along you gave the impression that you are on a draw and your river bet screams of a steal. It's only because you know what you have that you didn't see it that way. A river call here is mandatory. I think you are good nearly half the time.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anything that beats you will three bet and lead the turn or call and c/r the turn, giving you an easy passage out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen worse Ks do this often enough - especially 3bet the flop - that its nuts to fold the turn.


[/ QUOTE ] If you cap the flop, they aren't leading the turn often enough with a worse hand to justify calling.
[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn isn't that much worse either though I guess, except a pair of tens will most likely fold here, and if you get 3-bet you want to fold but are practically pot-committed to see the river (where you will then have to fold UI, IMO).

[/ QUOTE ]
Many times a T will call down after the turn raise , even if you don't have a particularly aggressive image. I agree that I'd call a 3bet and fold river, though, which sucks, even if it is correct. Does anyone care to do the math assuming a turn 3bet is always at least two pair?

[/ QUOTE ] true, sometimes a T will call down after a turn raise, but I think 75% of the time it is being folded. When I think more about it now, a turn raise is best if you fold to a 3-bet. In my experience a 3-bet here is a set or KT.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone care to do the math assuming a turn 3bet is always at least two pair?

[/ QUOTE ]
Board: Ks Ts 5d 8d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 13.6364 % 13.64% 00.00% { KhJd }
Hand 2: 86.3636 % 86.36% 00.00% { KTs, K8s, K5s, KTo, K8o, K5o }

Assume you call a 3bet and call the river bet, so you put in 2 more on the turn 1 on the river:

.86 * 3 = -2.58BB

Pot will be 9.5BB on river not counting the 3 you put in.

.136 * 9.5 = 1.29

1.29-2.58 = -1.28 BB.

So you lose -1.28BB when he has 2 pair here.

x is % of the time he has 2 pair:
So 1.28x = 9.5(1-x)
10.78x = 9.5
x = .88
So he needs 2 pair here &gt;88% of the time to make 3betting -EV.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

sorry im really confused.. im new to short handed play and i only play 3/6 but i dont get why u played it so passively and at least the river seems like a call at the very least

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know I would have three bet you on the river too, and not necessarily with a hand that is beating yours. From the way you played it I would put you on a flush draw that tried to buy the pot on the end.

By just calling along you gave the impression that you are on a draw and your river bet screams of a steal. It's only because you know what you have that you didn't see it that way. A river call here is mandatory. I think you are good nearly half the time.

[/ QUOTE ]3-betting would be a big mistake if you had a pair and thought I was bluffing. Of course some donks don't realize this. I would never say I am good nearly half the time but possibly ahead here 10% of the time, making this a tough river play. I'm surprised your the first to mention the way I actually played the hand. More comments on this subject from others would be appreciated.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

By waiting for the river you lose value against a worse pair when the draw makes it and you just call, raise this turn - or flop depending on your history/current image with this villain.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

[ QUOTE ]
sorry im really confused.. im new to short handed play and i only play 3/6 but i dont get why u played it so passively and at least the river seems like a call at the very least

[/ QUOTE ]basically, in this situation when a player leads into me here, I give their hand strength very little credit and I wanted them to keep betting their junk to the river.
edit: word choice issue.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

I raise the flop. I think yo ulose less chips when youre behind, and win more if hes a calling station donkey. Assuming he just calls the turn, checking behind and betting hte river are close.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone care to do the math assuming a turn 3bet is always at least two pair?

[/ QUOTE ]
Board: Ks Ts 5d 8d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 13.6364 % 13.64% 00.00% { KhJd }
Hand 2: 86.3636 % 86.36% 00.00% { KTs, K8s, K5s, KTo, K8o, K5o }

Assume you call a 3bet and call the river bet, so you put in 2 more on the turn 1 on the river:

.86 * 3 = -2.58BB

Pot will be 9.5BB on river not counting the 3 you put in.

.136 * 9.5 = 1.29

1.29-2.58 = -1.28 BB.

So you lose -1.28BB when he has 2 pair here.

x is % of the time he has 2 pair:
So 1.28x = 9.5(1-x)
10.78x = 9.5
x = .88
So he needs 2 pair here &gt;88% of the time to make 3betting -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the times he doesn't have 2 pair, but improves to beat us?

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen worse Ks do this often enough - especially 3bet the flop - that its nuts to fold the turn.


[/ QUOTE ] If you cap the flop, they aren't leading the turn often enough with a worse hand to justify calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who said we're capping after a 3bet? I am confused about what you're trying to say here.

Re: this stuff pisses me off
 

raise the flop

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: this stuff pisses me off