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-   -   Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=386481)

hornsandspurs 11-27-2005 11:59 PM

Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
I think I played this hand well up to the turn. When the board paired, I got gun shy. Did I just flat out wuss out, or can an argument be made for calling here?

This is my second post tonight regarding flush draw flops. I am still trying to figure out how to maximize the wins with these hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (16.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB

masse75 11-28-2005 12:19 AM

Re: Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
UTG+1 could have flopped the str8 or be pushing the 2nd nut flush. I think either way he'd be looking to drive out anyone else that's drawing to a better hand.

I'd raise the turn to see where I stand. With two others happily cold-calling along, you're getting the equity.

afk 11-28-2005 12:36 AM

Re: Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
What is your read on the preflop raiser? Depending on this read I think cold-calling is the worst option. Reraise or fold.

Since you made it to the flop, why are you raising it?

Why would you raise the turn?

You played the turn and river well but misplayed preflop and flop in my opinion - except the flop cap is good.

Songwind 11-28-2005 02:47 AM

Re: Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
*grunch*

I think I call here. Villain has something he likes a LOT on a Queen-high board. I'm thinking QQ, AA, or KK. Of course, if he has QQ you're boned no matter what, and even if he doesn't, his level of aggression suggests that if you raise, it's coming back 3 to you. Right now you're getting 13 to 1 to call. 6.5:1 on a raise, and if you get 3-bet it'll be what, 7:1? You've got 9 outs to the flush, but villain is definitely playing like he's got the makings of a full house, so you can't count them all... I don't like 3-betting this turn. Maybe I'm too passive.

cold_cash 11-28-2005 02:59 AM

Re: Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
Raising this turn would be bad on several levels.

The first flop raise is also no good. Look at the action. Why are you trying to isolate yourself against what is probably a much better hand, while driving out potential second-best-hand-makers?

If you were on the button with these guys inbetween you and the bettor, that's when you raise.

Pre-flop is also a concern.

macdaddy991 11-28-2005 04:09 AM

Re: Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
anyone else muck this PF?

Amerretto 11-28-2005 05:25 AM

Re: Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
*Grunch*
I would have been tempted to fold this preflop, at a guess the raiser either has you dominated, or has a high pair.

Anyway, on the flop, I would have been tempted to just call, a raise is possibly +ev, but only if everybody (as in this case) comes along for the ride.

Rest is fine, UTG+1 has to show you QQ or JJ.

detruncate 11-28-2005 06:53 AM

Re: Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
The pf play is not default. You need to justify it based on the players already in the hand and the likely actions behind you. I most likely fold.

Just call the flop lead. If the pot ends up raised and 3+ way you can think about pumping your draw for value. Raising doesn't make it more likely that you're going to win, and though you might get calls anyway given the coordinated flop there's no point risking it.

Raising the turn would be stupid. UTG+1 has taken all you've served up on a coordinated board and asked for more. The cost of calling the turn will be at least partially compensated by overcalls so you certainly don't want to knock them out and/or make it more expensive for you. You have nothing to protect and no equity edge to push. Call good sir or madam.

Way to make your hand on the river.

11-28-2005 07:47 AM

Re: Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
grunch

fold preflop

flop was good ^_^

call turn is correct, that 8 possibly boats a set so you could even be drawing dead here, but you have the equity to continue

i just call the river as well, there is still a good chance you are behind. when you are you are behind you probably lose more when you get 3bet as well which makes it more painful. and when you are ahead you could only manage 1 more BB as you could lose the overcall.



edit: actually you flop such a monster draw a call to keep people in wouldnt be a mistake, although you got lucky with the CCers.

POKhER 11-28-2005 08:00 AM

Re: Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?
 
Ok, Maybe i'm tired...

Preflop, Why you cold calling? FOLD IT!

Why the hell did you raise the flop?
-Kills the field,
-You're Drawing,
-You have no value if the field die
-You're behind.


Turn is fine,
River is standard.

I'm so baffled as to why people are happy with it!?!?!?!


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