Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

Villian is 20/0/1.9, I have about 50 hands with opponent, he hadn't done anything noteworthy.

I'm figuring at the point of me calling the check/raise on the flop at worse I have effective odds of 7 to 2.5 on calling down. But I figure most of the time I'm behind here and I've got the risk of the flush draw hitting.

It seems unlikely the check/raiser was a worse hand, although it's possible he's value raising a flush draw.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

A flop check-raise can mean numerous things in this instance; you have no reason to assign villain an A based on the action thus far. Villain's check-raise may be for protection purposes (assuming he thought MP1 would auto-bet the flop) when he holds medium/high pocket pair or, as you've stated, to extract value out of flush draw, etc.

I think 3-betting the flop is your best option here, since a turn raise will scare off CO, who is likely drawing near dead (unless, of course, he's holding a flush draw). In my opinion, 3-betting the flop kinda under represents your hand and may entice calls. If villain caps then I think you should consider reverting to call down mode.

Based on the action, folding is out of the question in my opinion.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

The SB cold called 1.5 SB preflop. So his most likely holdings are a pocketpair, high cards or a suited ace.
With so many players involved, it is very unlikely, that the SB makes this play without an ace. The flop check raise was intended to find out, who had the ace. If the bet came from the initial raiser, than he had to suggest, that MP1's kicker is stronger than his own one. But as the bet came from you, he could hope, that your kicker was not very strong, so he could continue betting out.

I would fold on the turn UI, but later I would always have doubts, whether I had made a correct play. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can I fold this

[/ QUOTE ]

no

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

Clarkmeister, Are you saying I can't fold the flop or based on the way the hand played out, I can't fold on any street?

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clarkmeister, Are you saying I can't fold the flop or based on the way the hand played out, I can't fold on any street?

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding on the flop is absolutely insane. Folding on the turn is near insane. Folding on the river is bad, but not quite insane.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clarkmeister, Are you saying I can't fold the flop or based on the way the hand played out, I can't fold on any street?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you lost this, but there's no fold anywhere here. Don't be results-oriented.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

I think that you have to call this down. I see a lot of players making a check/raise move here to try and steal or if they played preflop incorrectly and are holding a pair of Q or K here... they are a little peed off that the flop came like this. But you should call down here cause you are probably winning this pot at least 1 in 3 times.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

At party 2/4 you see alot of dumb things happen. I wont ever fold this.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

What about raising the turn? If CO isn't an idiot, his play looks a lot like a flush draw and it'd be nice to charge him some more. I don't think it's that likely that SB will 3-bet us here with a better A (with his stats), and if we get SB to fold a worse hand, the bet we lose is made up for by CO's cold-call. The Q is a good card for us, since it means that we could now have a lot of chopping out against a better A - and it makes it even more important to get more of CO's money in there. Finally, we might give ourselves the option of a free showdown, although I doubt we'd want to take it here.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folding on the flop is absolutely insane. Folding on the turn is near insane. Folding on the river is bad, but not quite insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

To the OP, you knew you could be up against a bigger A, which is why you called down. I think you played it well and it's just one of those hands you have to payoff at 2/4 online poker.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

Why doesn't anyone comment on the flop donk?

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

Pairofelevens,

Why not give my the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm not being results oriented?

In my original post I stated I believed I might be getting as little as 7 to 2.5 effective odds, I was check raised by a player who I haven't seen play aggressive. Excuse me but I honestly thought the proper play here was a matter of judgement and therefore borderline.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not give my the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm not being results oriented?


[/ QUOTE ]

It would be contrary to human nature to post this if you had split or won it, especially with the "can I fold this" header. Poker players read people, hands, posts... everything has a nuance. Of course he assumed you lost it, your posting it in the way you did was a tell. *g*

And, btw, you can't fold this without a montser read on villain. Not at 2/4.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is 20/0/1.9, I have about 50 hands with opponent, he hadn't done anything noteworthy.

I'm figuring at the point of me calling the check/raise on the flop at worse I have effective odds of 7 to 2.5 on calling down. But I figure most of the time I'm behind here and I've got the risk of the flush draw hitting.

It seems unlikely the check/raiser was a worse hand, although he's probably value raising a flush draw.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP and answered your question I believe.

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why doesn't anyone comment on the flop donk?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

To those of you advocating either three-betting the flop or raising the turn...what do your bets and raises accomplish? And why do you want to knock out the third player so badly? It should strike you that if it is possible to knock out the third player we probably don't want to.

To the OP: I like your line.

Will

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

There's a flopped flush draw. You want to let the 3rd player see the river for 1 bet on the turn?

Small change in the scenario....
 

Suppose the checkraise from the sb comes on the turn. Would you fold right there or continue to call down?

Re: Can I fold this, good hand?, good pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's a flopped flush draw. You want to let the 3rd player see the river for 1 bet on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's better than getting three-bet, that's for sure.

Let's try and weigh it out.

The turn raise is good when we are ahead of the SB AND the other caller has specifically a flush draw, in which case we gain about .8 of a bet by raising instead of calling.

The turn raise is bad when:

a) the SB has us beat with a better ace and we get three-bet. Since we have to call, we lose about 1.8 BB's on the turn. If we can fold UI we'll save a BB on the river, for a net loss of .8 BB's as opposed to calling down.

b) the CO has a hand that is not a flush draw but that he could call with...if he has a low pocket pair and would call one bet on the turn but not two (not an inconceivable scenario) we lose about .5 BB by chasing him out when he already doesn't have the odds to draw. If he has an even worse hand, like x6, and he was willing to call one but not two, we'd be losing a full BB. Also in the rare situation that he has the better ace as opposed to the PFR, he certainly isn't folding, and we lose BB's then.

IMHO the latter scenarios are far more likely than the scenario in which the CO has a flush draw and the SB doesn't have us beat, and calling down is superior.

Will