Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

5 handed 10-20. I have K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] second to act. UTG raises...he seems decent, somewhat aggro but this is the first I've played with him. I reraise. Folded to a loose player in the SB who coldcalls. UTG now caps and we both call. Three to the flop of 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB checks, UTG bets, I raise, SB calls (seemingly w/ instacall checked), UTG 3-bets, I cap and both call. The turn is the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks, UTG bets, I just call (seems like raise would be spewing at this point) and SB calls. The river is the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB checks, UTG bets. Muck or pay off cause the pot is big?

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

Sup Jeff,

with that preflop action, does a raise often have positive results for you? I find that when I raise on this board I am getting 3-bet and led into too often. care to talk some about the flop?

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

meh, half the time you are the favorite over JJ-99, and some of the other times you clean up some outs (if sb folds AQ/AK). Even if he has AA youre still gonna have a decent amount of equity if sb comes along, so it cant be too bad if it doesnt work, and when sb makes a bad fold it might save yout the pot.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

I'd raise the turn anyway. Putting him on exactly AA or the case KK is a little too much. I'm pretty sure he plays QQ, JJ and possibly TT the same way until that point. If he does have AA, you may back him up on the turn and you can take a free SD when you miss, not to mention all the other outs you have.

I agree with DMB for the flop. Why try to force the SB out? I think calling the flop is better against an aggro UTG raiser. He won't be willing to give up initiative too easily on such a drawy board.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

When the pot gets this big, usually if you can think of one hand the villain might play this way on every street that you can beat, you should call. I can instantly think of one, and that is QQ, and JJ is not impossible here. I think you should call the river.

I also want to talk about your turn play. I wouldve raised the turn and heres why. This pot is getting large, there is a chance you mightve outdrawn the UTG player, If you just call there are many hands the SB can have that will be able to call one bet profitably but not two. So I would raise to protect your hand the times it is good here, in case the small blind has a 5 outer type hand or a gutshot draw.

Against the UTG's range this turn raise doesnt make much sense, since the UTG is never folding a better hand, and you will only induce him to fold his two outers which is bad for your hand, and you may get 3 bet by a better hand, but becuz the SB is still in this hand, you must play your hand aggressively in this large pot and not allow the SB to call profitably with his 4-5 outers. If you were HU with the UTG player then just calling the turn makes a lot of sense given the preflop+flop action.

By the way if you did raise the turn and the UTG calls, I would check the river unimproved, which means usually you will be investing 2BB no matter how you play this hand, but I would rather make the whole investment on the turn and protect my hand the times it is good. Since you have many outs to beat a better hand, and the pot is large, you do not have to have the best hand here very often to make raising the turn correct.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

I would almost always raise this turn and since the sb check the river I'm almost definitely going to call. If he checkraises this river you're completely dead.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

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By the way if you did raise the turn and the UTG calls, I would check the river unimproved, which means usually you will be investing 2BB no matter how you play this hand, but I would rather make the whole investme

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You are going to get a crying river call from QQ-TT way more often than you are saving yourself a bet the times he stopped pushing his AA.

Also, raising the turn wont protect you against a 5 outter, because he cant have a 5 outter here. Youve got his outs tainted by your flush draw (hed have the odds to call with a 5 outter anyway tho even if you did raise). Same with a gutshot, he doesnt have 4 outs to that, hes got 3.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

If villain's any sort of decent player he can easily have TT-QQ here. Between SB being a bit short to draw on 3 outs, keeping TT-QQ in the hand, and favouring your implied odds I like the turn call. I can't imagine a fold on the end.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

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By the way if you did raise the turn and the UTG calls, I would check the river unimproved, which means usually you will be investing 2BB no matter how you play this hand, but I would rather make the whole investme

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You are going to get a crying river call from QQ-TT way more often than you are saving yourself a bet the times he stopped pushing his AA.

Also, raising the turn wont protect you against a 5 outter, because he cant have a 5 outter here. Youve got his outs tainted by your flush draw (hed have the odds to call with a 5 outter anyway tho even if you did raise). Same with a gutshot, he doesnt have 4 outs to that, hes got 3.

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It is still possible for the SB to have a 5 outer on this board even with the hero's flush draw. An example would be if the SB hand Ah6c. It is also possible for the SB to have a 3 or 4 outer here also. If the hero just calls the turn the SB will be getting approx 14.5-1 to call, which means if the SB has a 3-5 outer he will be getting the proper odds to outdraw the hero. If the Hero raises the turn the SB will be getting 7.75-1 to call, meaning if the small blind has a 3 or 4 outer he cannot call profitably, and although he may have the implied odds to call if he has 5 outs, he may still incorrectly fold this draw. Becuz there's a chance the hero has the best hand, and this pot is huge, I dont think the hero can afford to let the small blind draw profitably if he has a 3 or 4 outer, nor can he afford to not try to pressure the SB to fold those rare times he has a 5 outer. If the hero is going to call down anyways, which I believe he should, he is much better off raising the turn and protecting his hand in this large pot. If he doesnt improve he can always check the river. If given the choice between calling down and raising the turn and checking the river unimproved, I believe the hero will be better off in the long run by making that 2bb investment right away on the turn. When the pot gets this big, and you have something like a vulnerable top pair type hand, protecting your hand is more important than any saving bets strategy IMO.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

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By the way if you did raise the turn and the UTG calls, I would check the river unimproved, which means usually you will be investing 2BB no matter how you play this hand, but I would rather make the whole investme

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You are going to get a crying river call from QQ-TT way more often than you are saving yourself a bet the times he stopped pushing his AA.

Also, raising the turn wont protect you against a 5 outter, because he cant have a 5 outter here. Youve got his outs tainted by your flush draw (hed have the odds to call with a 5 outter anyway tho even if you did raise). Same with a gutshot, he doesnt have 4 outs to that, hes got 3.

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It is still possible for the SB to have a 5 outer on this board even with the hero's flush draw. An example would be if the SB hand Ah6c. It is also possible for the SB to have a 3 or 4 outer here also. If the hero just calls the turn the SB will be getting approx 14.5-1 to call, which means if the SB has a 3-5 outer he will be getting the proper odds to outdraw the hero. If the Hero raises the turn the SB will be getting 7.75-1 to call, meaning if the small blind has a 3 or 4 outer he cannot call profitably, and although he may have the implied odds to call if he has 5 outs, he may still incorrectly fold this draw. Becuz there's a chance the hero has the best hand, and this pot is huge, I dont think the hero can afford to let the small blind draw profitably if he has a 3 or 4 outer, nor can he afford to not try to pressure the SB to fold those rare times he has a 5 outer. If the hero is going to call down anyways, which I believe he should, he is much better off raising the turn and protecting his hand in this large pot. If he doesnt improve he can always check the river. If given the choice between calling down and raising the turn and checking the river unimproved, I believe the hero will be better off in the long run by making that 2bb investment right away on the turn. When the pot gets this big, and you have something like a vulnerable top pair type hand, protecting your hand is more important than any saving bets strategy IMO.

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so there is 2 hand combinations that have 5 outs (that make sense) its not even worth thinking about here when it comes to making a decision. Given that 3 outs is barely positve, I dont think arguing a raise for the sake of hand protection is worthwhile. I think arguing it in terms of value would be better. Charge sb to draw to his 6 outter or whatever, and get value out of UTGs QQ or whatever. I really hopew someone who is good at math drops by in this post, cuz I think the turn is basically just a math problem.

Also, again, taking the freeshowdown here is weak. If UTG doesnt fire back on the turn if you raise, you need to be betting this river if it blanks, not checking it behind. There is value in a bet.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

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By the way if you did raise the turn and the UTG calls, I would check the river unimproved, which means usually you will be investing 2BB no matter how you play this hand, but I would rather make the whole investme

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You are going to get a crying river call from QQ-TT way more often than you are saving yourself a bet the times he stopped pushing his AA.

Also, raising the turn wont protect you against a 5 outter, because he cant have a 5 outter here. Youve got his outs tainted by your flush draw (hed have the odds to call with a 5 outter anyway tho even if you did raise). Same with a gutshot, he doesnt have 4 outs to that, hes got 3.

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It is still possible for the SB to have a 5 outer on this board even with the hero's flush draw. An example would be if the SB hand Ah6c. It is also possible for the SB to have a 3 or 4 outer here also. If the hero just calls the turn the SB will be getting approx 14.5-1 to call, which means if the SB has a 3-5 outer he will be getting the proper odds to outdraw the hero. If the Hero raises the turn the SB will be getting 7.75-1 to call, meaning if the small blind has a 3 or 4 outer he cannot call profitably, and although he may have the implied odds to call if he has 5 outs, he may still incorrectly fold this draw. Becuz there's a chance the hero has the best hand, and this pot is huge, I dont think the hero can afford to let the small blind draw profitably if he has a 3 or 4 outer, nor can he afford to not try to pressure the SB to fold those rare times he has a 5 outer. If the hero is going to call down anyways, which I believe he should, he is much better off raising the turn and protecting his hand in this large pot. If he doesnt improve he can always check the river. If given the choice between calling down and raising the turn and checking the river unimproved, I believe the hero will be better off in the long run by making that 2bb investment right away on the turn. When the pot gets this big, and you have something like a vulnerable top pair type hand, protecting your hand is more important than any saving bets strategy IMO.

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so there is 2 hand combinations that have 5 outs (that make sense) its not even worth thinking about here when it comes to making a decision. Given that 3 outs is barely positve, I dont think arguing a raise for the sake of hand protection is worthwhile. I think arguing it in terms of value would be better. Charge sb to draw to his 6 outter or whatever, and get value out of UTGs QQ or whatever. I really hopew someone who is good at math drops by in this post, cuz I think the turn is basically just a math problem.

Also, again, taking the freeshowdown here is weak. If UTG doesnt fire back on the turn if you raise, you need to be betting this river if it blanks, not checking it behind. There is value in a bet.

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My discussion has been about comparing two strategies. Raising the turn and checking the river versus, calling down. I am just trying to point out why I think raising the turn and checking the river is better than calling down. Whether you believe the hero should fire another bet is fine, but that part is irrelevant to my discussion. Whether the hero should bet the river after he raises the turn is a whole other topic to me.

About you saying that any possible 5 outer is not worth thinking about, when the pot gets this large, every possible draw to beat the hero's hand should be considered. And I will say this one final time, If the hero just calls the turn, the SB will have an easy profitable call if he has 3-5 outs. If the hero raises the turn, the SB now can not call profitably if he has a 3 or 4 outer, and if the SB has a 5 outer he may still fold incorrectly. For these reasons alone, the hero should raise the turn. Whether this should be looked at as a protection raise or a value raise is not relevant to the point I am making. Raising the turn and checking the river, is better than calling down IMO for the reasons Ive stated 3 times now. As far as which line is better between raising the turn and checking the river or raising the turn and betting the river....I let someone else tackle that one.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

How could calling ever be better than raising this turn? With the best hand you can get more in, you can protect against some draws, and if you're behind you will probably pay the same, the times you end up getting 3bet are probably countered by the time you flush up and get them to make a crying call they wouldnt have if the pot was smaller.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

I cant resist, After a little thinking I think I have come to a conclusion about which line is better between, raising the turn and betting the river, or raising the turn and checking the river.
If I raised this turn and the UTG player called, I would check the river if i dont improve. Given the way the UTG player has played his hand preflop+flop he is verly likely to have a big over pair AA,KK,QQ. Since he just called the turn he cant have KK, so his most likely holdings are AA and QQ. Given that the hero is a 2-1 underdog against this range, I would check the river, now if you add in other hands like JJ or TT it would swing the river to a bet, but with no information on the villain, I would stick to my QQ-AA read and check the river.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

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I cant resist, After a little thinking I think I have come to a conclusion about which line is better between, raising the turn and betting the river, or raising the turn and checking the river.
If I raised this turn and the UTG player called, I would check the river if i dont improve. Given the way the UTG player has played his hand preflop+flop he is verly likely to have a big over pair AA,KK,QQ. Since he just called the turn he cant have KK, so his most likely holdings are AA and QQ. Given that the hero is a 2-1 underdog against this range, I would check the river, now if you add in other hands like JJ or TT it would swing the river to a bet, but with no information on the villain, I would stick to my QQ-AA read and check the river.

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AA is 6 combos, KK is 1 combo, QQ is 3 combos, given that 2 kings and 1 queen are accounted for. We can discount KK because it inevitably 3bets the turn, and AA must be discounted b/c it will often 3bet the turn too because your hand is quite transparently a pair kings. If AA is discounted 50% then we're breakeven. Throw in some non-zero probability of JJ-TT and we've got ourselves a value bet IMO.

Surf

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

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I cant resist, After a little thinking I think I have come to a conclusion about which line is better between, raising the turn and betting the river, or raising the turn and checking the river.
If I raised this turn and the UTG player called, I would check the river if i dont improve. Given the way the UTG player has played his hand preflop+flop he is verly likely to have a big over pair AA,KK,QQ. Since he just called the turn he cant have KK, so his most likely holdings are AA and QQ. Given that the hero is a 2-1 underdog against this range, I would check the river, now if you add in other hands like JJ or TT it would swing the river to a bet, but with no information on the villain, I would stick to my QQ-AA read and check the river.

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AA is 6 combos, KK is 1 combo, QQ is 3 combos, given that 2 kings and 1 queen are accounted for. We can discount KK because it inevitably 3bets the turn, and AA must be discounted b/c it will often 3bet the turn too because your hand is quite transparently a pair kings. If AA is discounted 50% then we're breakeven. Throw in some non-zero probability of JJ-TT and we've got ourselves a value bet IMO.

Surf

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IMO, AA should not be discounted. I think there is a great chance the villain can have Aces. Lets rewind here, Jeff did 3 bet preflop, and cap the flop with apparent disregard to the villains preflop cap and flop aggression. From the villain's prespective Jeff has also represented a big overpair type hand like QQ-AA. If the villain has AA I can easily see him just calling Jeff's turn raise fearing Jeff has KK given the way Jeff has played preflop+flop. In fact, I would be more likely to discount QQ than AA here, since the villain may even fold QQ to Jeff's turn raise given all the aggression Jeff has showed thoughout this hand. Assuming the villain would not fold a hand like QQ, I still say that the probability that the villain has AA should not be discounted. And if I raised this turn and the villain called, AA would be the hand I would expect him to have most of time given the way the villain played preflop+flop.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

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AA is 6 combos, KK is 1 combo, QQ is 3 combos, given that 2 kings and 1 queen are accounted for. We can discount KK because it inevitably 3bets the turn, and AA must be discounted b/c it will often 3bet the turn too because your hand is quite transparently a pair kings. If AA is discounted 50% then we're breakeven. Throw in some non-zero probability of JJ-TT and we've got ourselves a value bet IMO.

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50%s too heavy with the flop raise.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

raise the turn.

you might have the best hand and if you get 3 bet, oh well, that is life and you have outs. got to try to make the SB fold in this huge pot.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

Raise the turn, bet the river. By this point if he's decent it's quite likely he slows down with AA, and is definitely paying off with some worse hands. I think he's got TT a lot here too.

What I'm wondering though is if I'm villain and I have AA and you raise me on the turn, should I be 3-betting you given that I just said he should be paying off with worse hands. If villain should be paying off with QQ or TT, that should logically mean that he's beating enough hands with AA that 3-betting the turn with AA no longer looks like spewage. However, when this action occurs and I have TT-QQ, I feel like I'm never getting pushed the pot, which means I should be folding to your river bet, in which case if this is true it's better for you with your KQ to be calling the turn and calling the river (or betting if checked to).

So much to consider. For now, I'm gonna stick with raise the turn and bet the river. BTW, I rarely raise the flop since I find what happens for me too often is the blind folds and I get 3 bet. Or if the blind calls after I just call, it's with a hand he woulda called two cold with anyway (and this type of described blind is still calling two cold with AK or AQ).

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

It was late and i didn't realize hero capped the flop. I don't like the flop raise at all, and the cap is meh considering you're not getting him to fold his overpair unless the turn and river cards come K, A and he has TT-QQ so you're just more likely to isolate yourself with a neutral EV raise.

checking the river does look more appealing b/c he will slow down with AA, but that makes raising more appealing too b/c without a read he's not folding TT-QQ so there's plenty of value in a river bet.

Surf

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

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It was late and i didn't realize hero capped the flop. I don't like the flop raise at all, and the cap is meh considering you're not getting him to fold his overpair unless the turn and river cards come K, A and he has TT-QQ so you're just more likely to isolate yourself with a neutral EV raise.

checking the river does look more appealing b/c he will slow down with AA, but that makes raising more appealing too b/c without a read he's not folding TT-QQ so there's plenty of value in a river bet.

Surf

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Given the villains description(no strong lag read) and how he played this hand, I believe the probability of him having AA is higher than the probability of him having QQ,JJ,TT combined, which is why I would check the river unimproved.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

Regarding the flop:

I like the raise, and after it comes 3 back to me it seems like an easy cap since sb's along for the ride.

Given the fact that sb cc'd 2.5 pre, he's coming along for 2 with overs a lot of the time which is fine taking 2:1 on the flop with our fd, if he doesn't it might clean up some of our k/q outs.

RESULTS
 

Thanks for all the responses. I called UTG's bet on the river to look at his pocket aces. I think I should have raised the turn regardless, but I've been getting beat up lately and I was pretty sure he had AA. Afterall, I 3-bet preflop, raised and capped the flop, yet he leads again. Would he do that with QQ after the flop action and my preflop action? It's possible, but I doubt it...and I could see getting reraised quite often on the turn if villian has AA (though not 100% obviously).

That said, raising the turn is the play, and it's the play I would normally make...one b/c I could be good (outside IMO), two because I have outs if not and three to possibly eliminate the blind or make him pay through the nose to chase).

As for the flop, I like raising b/c at this point - I can't solidly put UTG on AA yet, I possibly have tons of outs and if I can get the blind out, good, if he comes, good. I'd be interested in more thoughts on all of the above.

Jeff

Re: RESULTS
 

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Thanks for all the responses. I called UTG's bet on the river to look at his pocket aces. I think I should have raised the turn regardless, but I've been getting beat up lately and I was pretty sure he had AA. Afterall, I 3-bet preflop, raised and capped the flop, yet he leads again. Would he do that with QQ after the flop action and my preflop action? It's possible, but I doubt it...and I could see getting reraised quite often on the turn if villian has AA (though not 100% obviously).

That said, raising the turn is the play, and it's the play I would normally make...one b/c I could be good (outside IMO), two because I have outs if not and three to possibly eliminate the blind or make him pay through the nose to chase).

As for the flop, I like raising b/c at this point - I can't solidly put UTG on AA yet, I possibly have tons of outs and if I can get the blind out, good, if he comes, good. I'd be interested in more thoughts on all of the above.

Jeff

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I didnt comment on your flop play becuz I thought it looked fine. I would raise the flop in this spot almost every time, like you said, the UTG's hand is still not defined, and you would prefer the SB to get out of the hand at this point, but if he calls you really dont mind either. Many times you will be raising this flop for value if the UTG has a hand like JJ or below. I also dont think your flop cap is spewing at all, with two people committed you are making money on this cap unless the villain has specificaly AA or KK and even in this situation your flop cap is pretty much a break even play but you will sometimes be able to take a free card on the turn if the villain goes for a checkraise on the turn.

So if the villain has AA or KK your flop cap costs you nothing in the long run but may allow you to see a free river if the villain trys to trap you on the turn. If the villain has QQ,AK,AQ, giving you a 12 outer, then you make money off this cap since you are getting 2-1 on your cap and you are less than a 2-1 underdog. If the villain has JJ or below or a hand like AJs giving you a 15 outer, you make even more money off this flop cap. So your flop line looks fine to me, and I would play it the same way.

I also thought preflop was standard.

Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?
 

posting blind.......the flop cap is not optimal....calling the flop 3bet is much better.