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-   -   $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=406486)

GtrHtr 12-28-2005 11:34 AM

$22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
After losing the last hand I was left with a seriously short stack. Wait and pray or push? If push, push any 2 from position or is there a limit to your push hands?

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t3800)
UTG+1 (t930)
CO (t610)
Hero (t330)
SB (t1100)
BB (t1230)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero t330 (All-in)</font>

45suited 12-28-2005 11:36 AM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
Looks fine to me. How often are you going to get a better spot than this before the blinds hit you?

I mean, you're open pushing from the button with a hand that's not terrible. You must push here, IMO.

12-28-2005 11:41 AM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
If we think the SB will call with any pair, any ace, any two other broadway and the BB will call with any two (since he's just getting fantastic odds) then it's exactly neutral EV. To be honest, I think this is the best you're going to get and just have to push it now and pray for the best.

12-28-2005 11:54 AM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
I would say push, but we can't forget that they're more likely to call you since they think you're on tilt... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] That opens up their range a little bit (and for some donks, it opens up their range to 100%)

45suited 12-28-2005 11:56 AM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
I would say push, but we can't forget that they're more likely to call you since they think you're on tilt... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] That opens up their range a little bit (and for some donks, it opens up their range to 100%)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually irrelevant in this case. OP has enough of a stack to have some FE over SB and the typical BB is calling with all but the absolute worst hands anyway getting 2:1 on his money.

12-28-2005 11:58 AM

Post deleted by Cola
 

12-28-2005 12:01 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
Clear fold. You have a few hands to wait until you are committed, and I'm sure you'll get a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly not a clear fold...

11t 12-28-2005 12:01 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
I'd fold complete rags since there is no ante and you have no fold equity.

J8os is way to powerful to fold here though, especially since the sb might fold and you can go against BB's call with a very likely random hand.

45suited 12-28-2005 12:03 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
Clear fold. You have a few hands to wait until you are committed, and I'm sure you'll get a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? He's in the BB for almost half his stack in 3 hands. And it's not a matter of 'getting a better hand', it's a matter of getting a better opportunity than this. OP desperately needs to double up and / or steal blinds. He absolutely can not afford to fold here.

12-28-2005 01:52 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

45suited 12-28-2005 01:55 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
I guarentee u get a better hand than j8 offsuit in 3 or less hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call BS on your claims of making 5K per week playing SNGs if you fail to understand that it's not simply a matter of him getting a better hand before the blinds hit him.

Okay, so say the next hand he picks up TJo, but the pot is raised in front of him. Is that a better spot than open pushing with 8Jo from the button? Hardly.

12-28-2005 01:57 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

RobGW 12-28-2005 02:05 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
Saying you guarantee you'll get a better hand is nonsense. You can guarantee no such thing and as 45s said, even if you do you may be against a better hand or two. If you are going to make a ridiculous statement like that I think we all would like some sort of explaination.

pooh74 12-28-2005 02:08 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
You don't understand and I don't have the energy to explain further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor do you have any idea what you are talking about...this is a clear push.

12-28-2005 02:08 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

12-28-2005 02:09 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

pooh74 12-28-2005 02:11 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't understand and I don't have the energy to explain further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor do you have any idea what you are talking about...this is a clear push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to hear what OP pushed into, I mean lost to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I am sure you have no idea what you are talking about.

RobGW 12-28-2005 02:15 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
OK I see now. With each post of yours I read, it becomes more and more clear you dont know what your doing. I think your reasoning is flawed as we have pointed out but if you dont want to believe it then just go on about folding. I thought just maybe you had another reason that you weren't sharing with us but I guess not.

pooh74 12-28-2005 02:17 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Saying you guarantee you'll get a better hand is nonsense. You can guarantee no such thing and as 45s said, even if you do you may be against a better hand or two. If you are going to make a ridiculous statement like that I think we all would like some sort of explaination.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus!!! Use your brain. J8 unsuited is a BELOW AVERAGE hand. The chances of you getting an ABOVE AVERAGE hand in 3 goes is very high! Hello??

[/ QUOTE ]

Your tone is annoying...try using your brain too. On those subsequent hands where you hold out for something better, you have to push through more people increasing the likelihood of being called by better hands.

Having 2BBs is the problem, not pushing J8.

45suited 12-28-2005 02:25 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Saying you guarantee you'll get a better hand is nonsense. You can guarantee no such thing and as 45s said, even if you do you may be against a better hand or two. If you are going to make a ridiculous statement like that I think we all would like some sort of explaination.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus!!! Use your brain. J8 unsuited is a BELOW AVERAGE hand. The chances of you getting an ABOVE AVERAGE hand in 3 goes is very high! Hello??

[/ QUOTE ]

Your tone is annoying...try using your brain too. On those subsequent hands where you hold out for something better, you have to push through more people increasing the likelihood of being called by better hands.

Having 2BBs is the problem, not pushing J8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Not to mention the fact that J8o is actually 51% vs a random hand, so even that claim is incorrect.

My 'troll detector' has been activated.

pooh74 12-28-2005 02:26 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]


My 'troll detector' has been activated.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ditto...thought it was bit late for the December Troll to show up so late though.

12-28-2005 02:42 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'd love to hear what OP pushed into, I mean lost to.

[/ QUOTE ]
The push was either the correct decision or it wasn't. What actually happened is irrelevant.

Even I, as a relative noob, can recognize that this is an automatic push. The number of potential callers is about as important as the cards you're pushing with, especially here where Hero's stack isn't gonna induce any folds in itself.

It's also more likely that both the J and 8 will be live here, whereas if you pushed with weak K or Q, a caller may have you dominated.

12-28-2005 02:44 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

12-28-2005 02:46 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

12-28-2005 02:48 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

pooh74 12-28-2005 02:54 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Saying you guarantee you'll get a better hand is nonsense. You can guarantee no such thing and as 45s said, even if you do you may be against a better hand or two. If you are going to make a ridiculous statement like that I think we all would like some sort of explaination.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus!!! Use your brain. J8 unsuited is a BELOW AVERAGE hand. The chances of you getting an ABOVE AVERAGE hand in 3 goes is very high! Hello??

[/ QUOTE ]

Your tone is annoying...try using your brain too. On those subsequent hands where you hold out for something better, you have to push through more people increasing the likelihood of being called by better hands.

Having 2BBs is the problem, not pushing J8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Not to mention the fact that J8o is actually 51% vs a random hand, so even that claim is incorrect.

My 'troll detector' has been activated.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, the only reason I am correcting you is because I know none of you play at my level. I mean, u couldn't if you really believe what u are saying. If he was in the BB next hand, yes of course push, but he's not. You people are too push-happy. And why am I a troll? I am explaining my reasoning. You disagree with it, fine. No point in name calling, that's very kindergarten-ish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Continue to play at "your level". You have done nothing but refute the valid points brought up here by saying "you guys arent giving any reasons why I am wrong."

You are not going to get along well on these boards and it has nothing to do with the fact that your ideas are wrong.

Granted, to me these are basic concepts, but there was a time when I may have thought as you did...but I always know its ok to be wrong...you dont. I love the fact you think as you do, and I will let you continue to think as such...

12-28-2005 02:56 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

Hendricks433 12-28-2005 02:57 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
Your filling up this forum of bad advice is horrible for this forum which is a very good forum. Please stop being so strongheaded and stupid. Read more and respond less.

pooh74 12-28-2005 02:59 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Saying you guarantee you'll get a better hand is nonsense. You can guarantee no such thing and as 45s said, even if you do you may be against a better hand or two. If you are going to make a ridiculous statement like that I think we all would like some sort of explaination.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus!!! Use your brain. J8 unsuited is a BELOW AVERAGE hand. The chances of you getting an ABOVE AVERAGE hand in 3 goes is very high! Hello??

[/ QUOTE ]

Your tone is annoying...try using your brain too. On those subsequent hands where you hold out for something better, you have to push through more people increasing the likelihood of being called by better hands.

Having 2BBs is the problem, not pushing J8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Not to mention the fact that J8o is actually 51% vs a random hand, so even that claim is incorrect.

My 'troll detector' has been activated.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, the only reason I am correcting you is because I know none of you play at my level. I mean, u couldn't if you really believe what u are saying. If he was in the BB next hand, yes of course push, but he's not. You people are too push-happy. And why am I a troll? I am explaining my reasoning. You disagree with it, fine. No point in name calling, that's very kindergarten-ish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Continue to play at "your level". You have done nothing but refute the valid points brought up here by saying "you guys arent giving any reasons why I am wrong."

You are not going to get along well on these boards and it has nothing to do with the fact that your ideas are wrong.

Granted, to me these are basic concepts, but there was a time when I may have thought as you did...but I always know its ok to be wrong...you dont. I love the fact you think as you do, and I will let you continue to think as such...

[/ QUOTE ]

...coz, after some thought, u know I am right.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok troll alert at DEFCON red...Ive been sort of civil, but now you are on ignore.

yep, you're right by the way...fold this hand

11t 12-28-2005 03:00 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
You sir, are giving awful advice.

Vuron00 12-28-2005 03:01 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
You have to push.

Even if you were to wait around for a better hand, you'd be calling an all in from the current CO, who is going to have to push in the next 2 hands, also.

Big stack is BB next hand and is definately calling with any 2 so no FE next hand. Current CO will probably push the hand after that, so you'll be calling his all-in and praying nobody else calls. The hand after that, you're either UTG and on autopush or you're paying the BB with half your stack because CO busted out the hand before when he had to push.

11t 12-28-2005 03:02 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
Hero may be dealt a better hand for showdown value, but hero is more than likely not to be given a more +EV opportunity.

Mathematical fact, deny it if you'd like

wildzer0 12-28-2005 03:03 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
I'm pushing any 2 here. It sucks, but I think this is the best situation you're going to get - you're likely to be against one player with a random hand. If you wait that's probably not going to be the case.

12-28-2005 03:04 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

async 12-28-2005 03:05 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
With a range of 22+, A2+, KT+, QT+, JT+ (which is actually probably overly generous) for the SB, and any 2 for the BB, pushing is, as noted, EV neutral. Even if the SB is slightly tigther (22+, A2+, KT+, QJ+) it remains more or less neutral.

Even if BB folds 20% of his hands, it is only marginally +EV. In a 20, I'd push, because the 20 players I've encountered often do not correctly understand pot odds. I've seen BBs fold for a 1/2BB bet when they were getting 5:1.

async 12-28-2005 03:09 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pushing any 2 here. It sucks, but I think this is the best situation you're going to get - you're likely to be against one player with a random hand. If you wait that's probably not going to be the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing any 2 here is a mistake. J9 is not, by any means, "any 2". J9o ranks, on the K-S tables, as 77 out of 169 possible holdings. For example, J5o is a clear fold here unless you are quite certain you have a super-tight donk in the BB. (Even if he throws away the worst 1/3 of his potential hands, you are eensy-teensy -EV to push J5o)

12-28-2005 03:11 PM

Post deleted by Cola
 

jmillerdls 12-28-2005 03:13 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
It's odd how this is all you have seen. I have seen several people with similar insight on why pushing is correct and have written several reasons of which you are choosing to ignore.

Today is the first day I have seen any of your posts (and I would assume its one of your first few days as you have so few posts), and I have seen nothing but bad commentary from you.

Whether it is you saying how wonderful your lifestyle is because you make 5k a week by one working through Wedensday, or you telling other people they are wrong, without giving any logic (despite what you may claim is logic) makes it clear to me you are just here to be confrontational. You have no desire to add to this forum in any meaningful way.

I have a strong suspicion you are just some $3 SNG player on Stars that thinks it will be fun to say you play the biggest games and are a huge winner, and clearly know the correct answer to every situation. All I know for sure is that I can correctly dismiss any of your posts as being helpful or insightful in any way. Have fun...

async 12-28-2005 03:15 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
If push, push any 2 from position or is there a limit to your push hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Push any pair, any A, any K, Q6o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98s+.

wildzer0 12-28-2005 03:16 PM

Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack
 
[ QUOTE ]
"ah hell, I'll push."

[/ QUOTE ]


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