Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

There is already a Tookie thread but I am aghast by the slanted coverage of the typical left wing major media outlets.

All you hear is about Tookie, his supporters, what he's doing now, what he founded, what books he wrote, etc etc etc

I have not heard A SINGLE VICTIM'S NAME.

Has anyone heard any media outlet that listed the victim's names? This execution tonight is about the victims. Tonight is for them, it's not about "Tookie"

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone heard any media outlet that listed the victim's names? This execution tonight is about the victims. Tonight is for them, it's not about "Tookie"

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I just can't see how the execution does anything at all for the victims, so I can't see how the execution is for them.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

You had the opportunity and instead tried to make politics of it.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

I've seen the mother of one of the vics. She wants justice/revenge. Not a particularly articulate lady. Maybe that's why you haven't seen her much.

Don't know about the other families. Like you say, none have, to my knowledge, been on camera. Maybe that's their wish. Not the bias you cite.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

The victims are dead, so how isthis execution going to help them at all? The death penelty is a drain on society and only helps those seeking revenge.

Revenge is not justice. Justice is letting murderers rot in prision rof the rest of their lives.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

Most of the stories I've seen today mention Arnold Schwarzenegger. Must be right wing bias.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The victims are dead, so how isthis execution going to help them at all? The death penelty is a drain on society and only helps those seeking revenge.

Revenge is not justice. Justice is letting murderers rot in prision rof the rest of their lives.

[/ QUOTE ]

If its worse to rot in prison than die, why does he want his life spared?

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the stories I've seen today mention Arnold Schwarzenegger. Must be right wing bias.

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Or, simply because he's the governor of the state (a controversial one at that) and had the authority to grant clemency but chose not to?

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If its worse to rot in prison than die, why does he want his life spared?

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If he believes in God, perhaps he's concerned just a tad about "meeting his Maker." You know, that whole "answering for his sins" thingie.

Then again, maybe he thinks he can continue to do good work from his cell, kick back on the ole cot and put away all that good prison chow.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If its worse to rot in prison than die, why does he want his life spared?

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If he believes in God, perhaps he's concerned just a tad about "meeting his Maker." You know, that whole "answering for his sins" thingie.

Then again, maybe he thinks he can continue to do good work from his cell, kick back on the ole cot and put away all that good prison chow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was speaking from a punishment perspective. When he is dead his punishment is over, since heis going to die eventually why not keep him locked up for 40 more years and then let him die.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When he is dead his punishment is over, since he is going to die eventually why not keep him locked up for 40 more years and then let him die.

[/ QUOTE ]


Jeezus H. C., Mary and Joseph!!!!!!!

I just agreed with weatherman!!!!!!!!!

Now if I could just figure out if this means I've crossed over to the Dark Side; had a severe, and possibly terminal brain fart; pigs have begun flying and I'd best get my car in the garage; should go design me a commerative chip.

hmmmmmmm, I'm goin' with the chip idea.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

DON"T KILL TOOKIE

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

I love all the western countries with the death penalty, oh wait, we're the only one....

Anyway, what does killing him accomplish? He is a murderer, but from prison he has been writing childrens books and urging kids not to join gangs or get involved in gang violence. Dead, he can do nothing, alive, whether he means it or not, he can help people. He cant hurt anyone else...

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

Who did Tookie kill? If it was other gang banger gutter scum then spare him and let him write more kiddie books. If it was innocent people, inject.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who did Tookie kill? If it was other gang banger gutter scum then spare him and let him write more kiddie books. If it was innocent people, inject.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you have reached a new low in my book. Who are you to judge the value of any other human's life.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

"Wow, you have reached a new low in my book. Who are you to judge the value of any other human's life."

Does anybody else see the contradiction in this statement?

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who are you to judge the value of any other human's life.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with Peter666, but all you who support abortion make that same value judgement, especially regarding partial birth abortion where a borderline viable fetus is partially delivered so that its head might be crushed.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Wow, you have reached a new low in my book. Who are you to judge the value of any other human's life."

Does anybody else see the contradiction in this statement?

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My personal opinions of you have nothing to do with the value of your life. If you were killed I'd support the normal prosecution of your murderer, nothinig more, nothing less. But I could still see you as a lowlife bastard.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

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DON"T KILL TOOKIE

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The death penalty, in some of our united states, is the law. The laws have been thru the system. The supremes have ruled on them. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

We can debate/discuss it all we want but unless/until our lawmakers are convinced otherwise, it stays that way.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

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I don't agree with Peter666, but all you who support abortion make that same value judgement, especially regarding partial birth abortion where a borderline viable fetus is partially delivered so that its head might be crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]


Exactly the line of reasoning that's changed a number of opinions about the death penalty. Mine included.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

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He cant hurt anyone else...

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Not true.

I oppose the death penalty, but in the interest of getting the facts right, he has attacked prison guards and sexually assaulted other prisoners since he's been in jail. I wonder if he included that in his children's books.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
DON"T KILL TOOKIE

[/ QUOTE ]

The death penalty, in some of our united states, is the law. The laws have been thru the system. The supremes have ruled on them. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

We can debate/discuss it all we want but unless/until our lawmakers are convinced otherwise, it stays that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slavery was the law,
Segregation was the law,
Voting restrictions was the law,

Only through active protest can such laws be changed. A governer granting pardon to all death row inmates is exactly the type of move needed to get the ball rolling.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When he is dead his punishment is over, since he is going to die eventually why not keep him locked up for 40 more years and then let him die.

[/ QUOTE ]


Jeezus H. C., Mary and Joseph!!!!!!!

I just agreed with weatherman!!!!!!!!!

Now if I could just figure out if this means I've crossed over to the Dark Side; had a severe, and possibly terminal brain fart; pigs have begun flying and I'd best get my car in the garage; should go design me a commerative chip.

hmmmmmmm, I'm goin' with the chip idea.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

dont worry Nut, I am with you on this one. I am very much anti-death penalty myself. I couldnt square my beliefs on abortion with supporting the death penalty so here I am. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Its not bad to visit the dark side once in a while, they have nice chocolate. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Who are you to judge the value of any other human's life.

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I don't agree with Peter666, but all you who support abortion make that same value judgement, especially regarding partial birth abortion where a borderline viable fetus is partially delivered so that its head might be crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The death penelty and abortion are two completely seperate issues. While they both involve the destruction of life they do it forvery different reasons.

The death penalty is based on a flawed idea of justice and detterence. Because of this it is a terrible system.

Abortion advocate mostly do not believe in abortion as a form of birth control. It is not there so you can have all the sex you want consequence free. For most it is an issue of personal control over ones body (mostly females). Also there are strong elements of quality of life issues and ability to raise a child.

The base for each movement is so diametrically different that they really cannot be compared.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He cant hurt anyone else...

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Not true.

I oppose the death penalty, but in the interest of getting the facts right, he has attacked prison guards and sexually assaulted other prisoners since he's been in jail.

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This is important information. As a catholic, I too like some of the other posters here have gone to being against the death penalty in most cases as a result of Pope John Paul II's teachings, and his view, now part of our catechism, that it should not be used because society has the means to incarcerate such killers to protect itself without killing them.

But when they continue such actions even inside prison which shows that other prisoners and guards are at risk from them, then I am in favor the of death penalty being used on them. Unless those actions were solely restricted to his first few years in prison, then I would now have no qualms about his being executed if the above information is accurate.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

How are we as a society better off by executing this guy? If we're seeking to punish him, what kind of punishment is killing him? He'll be dead for Christ's sake. His punishment will be over. Who are we punishing, his family? His friends? Do they deserve punishment?

Are we deterring future murders? By gang bangers or otherwise? Doubtful. There's little evidence supporting the notion that the death penalty is a deterrent. Are we rehabilitating him? Obviously not, and based upon the news accounts a reasonable argument could be made that he was somewhat rehabilitated, or at least was trying to do so to a degree.

So that leaves us with retribution. Are we killing him to make the families of the victims feel better? Is this a valid basis for punishment? If so, why not just let the families of the victims sit on the jury or decide the punishment themselves. Besides, criminal punishment is considered on a society-wide basis. We don't punish people to make 10 people happy, we do it because doing so is in society's interest. And while this board demonstrates that there are a number of people in this country with the questionable attitude that retribution is a valid basis for taking someone's life, I would venture to say that there are an equal number, if not a greater number, of people who would disagree.

So how is our interest served by this execution? When this is a person who can go, and has gone, to schools and preach about the evils of gangs?

edited to remove unnecessary introductory comment

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

But surely the guy who killed me should not be punished as severly for killing a low life bastard like me compared to...an innocent young girl.

There are degrees of badness.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

You cannot make that distinction between abortion and the death penalty, even though it is clear by your comments that you impugn the motives of many who advocate abortion.

There has to be a respect and protection of life from conception to natural death, with the exceptions on the death penalty I noted in my post above, or a person's life isn't given its full value and respect, and will be subject to the whims and personal gain of others.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But surely the guy who killed me should not be punished as severly for killing a low life bastard like me compared to...an innocent young girl.

There are degrees of badness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should he be punished more for killing a little girl? That makes no sense. If anything killing an adult is a bigger blow to society since it takes away a productive member.

your degree of badness idea is unfounded and childish, it has no place in any sort of legal system whatsoever.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

"your degree of badness idea is unfounded and childish, it has no place in any sort of legal system whatsoever."

That is ridiculous. Judges since the beginning of civilization have determined the length or severity of punishment depending on the degree of badness in a crime.

"If anything killing an adult is a bigger blow to society since it takes away a productive member"

Who thinks all adult members of a society are productive? Some are, some aren't and to differing degrees.

And why is it gangbangers kill each other on the streets everyday, but CNN would rather run continual coverage on the story of a kidnapped or murdered girl?

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
dont worry Nut, I am with you on this one. I am very much anti-death penalty myself. I couldnt square my beliefs on abortion with supporting the death penalty so here I am. Its not bad to visit the dark side once in a while, they have nice chocolate.

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It's always nice knowing I'm in your company, J. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

And I do love the good chocolate. By itself or with some fine liquid - of the alcoholic strain. And good chocolate always goes nicely with a fine female, naturally. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I digress. And reminisce. Forgive me.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."



[/ QUOTE ]

What does any of this have to do with paying your taxes? You do know that is what your quote is about, right?

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

CNN's choice of coverage is a direct result of ratings prompts. It has absolutely nothing to do with the percieved "badness" of the crime.

A man who murders a gang member will and should go to jail for the same ammount of time as a man who kills albert einstein/Kennedey/ or my own mother.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

I think you've mis-directed your post/reply. I wasn't arguing in favor of the death penalty. I only acknowledged that it's the law of "parts of" the land.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

I don’t view the death penalty as punishment, a deterrent, or retribution... only as a consequence. I am not “licking my lips” to kill this guy, but it is what it is... or at least should be. A matter of fact consequence.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

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It's always nice knowing I'm in your company, J. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]



[/ QUOTE ]

Is the J. for Junior? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I digress. And reminisce. Forgive me.

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No worries. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."



[/ QUOTE ]

What does any of this have to do with paying your taxes? You do know that is what your quote is about, right?

[/ QUOTE ]


It also means obey the laws society has determined necessary and just - as they pertain to society and as long as they don't conflict with God's law. IMO, I hasten to add.

I really don't want to start a Bible study class/discussion in this thread. And I won't deny you your interpretation. I don't consider it my business.

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

vulture! How could I! Damn!

I know something, from your posts, about both of you. I feel the same about you, Sir. I think I may have had one of Jihad's posts that I'd read just a little while ago on my mind.

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Mea culpa. No excuse. Forgive?]

<ul type="square"> [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img][/list]
edit: I don't have avatars turned on anymore - does that help me?

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

Avatars may help. Also taking your medicine. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Just giving you a hard time, thats pretty much what I figured had happened. And youll be happy to know that I was able to escape doing forward air control tonight in subzero weather on the Nevada ranges. You dont want me to be cold do you? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tookie, tookie, tookie... what about the victims?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don’t view the death penalty as punishment, a deterrent, or retribution... only as a consequence. I am not “licking my lips” to kill this guy, but it is what it is... or at least should be. A matter of fact consequence.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous. Criminal justice in this country is not a consequence. It's supposed to serve a purpose.