100/200 9Ts
 

5 handed 100/200. I raise 9hTh utg. A loose, fishy player cold calls. A solid player 3 bets on the button, both blinds fold. I call, fish calls.
Flop 987 with 2 clubs. I check, fish checks, solid players bets, I call, fish checkraises. We both call. I really wasn't sure what to do on the flop.
Turn is a small club, either a 2 or a 3. Check, bet, call, call.
River is the 6c, giving me a straight but putting 4 clubs on board. Check, check, and now the preflop 3 bettor bets. Am I calling here? Did I put myself in a bad position by playing my hand so weakly on earlier streets?

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

Woa how can you not CR the flop??

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Woa how can you not CR the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't want to lose the fish and be HU OOP w/ a solid player on the later streets.

Barron

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

i would call river and likely play the entire hand the same way you did.

you could have raise on the flop or turn, but then you would have had to make a post like "was this chip spewing cause the guy 3 bet me"

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Woa how can you not CR the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't want to lose the fish and be HU OOP w/ a solid player on the later streets.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you telling me that you also don't CR the flop??

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

interesting...

solid player has played it as if he has overs with a club or an overpair with a club...he's betting despite being bet into by the fish and c'red on earlier streets so he knows the fish is calling. id say a river fold is ok.

the flop is where i think after you dont lose the fish and he c'rs, id 3bet and collect two bets from both of them and then lead the turn b/c at this point, you can lay it down to a turn raise if a club hits the board because of the strength you showed earlier.

and to answer your question, yea its kinda tough to put you on any kind of good hand b/c of the way you played it.

EDIT: i think my last sentance the the first one contradict each other. given the last sentance i think the first one is incorrect and you should call.

Barron

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

I would generally cr the flop. Try and push out a fishes 5, 3 outer, better defines your hand against the tag (although with the open ender, maybe that not valueable).

I still think you are in good shape on the turn. Could you consider a cr? What % of the time do you think you have the best hand at this point? I'd guess at least half the time.

River stinks. I'm trying to come up with hands Villian might value bet here worse than your hand. The fish obviously saying he doesn't have the flush makes it a little easier for Villian to valye bet. He can't be betting a an overpair here based on previous action. I think Villian has to be betting the straight (AJ) or the flush here. I don't think you can call profitable to the split. I fold.

Krishan

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
the flop is where i think after you dont lose the fish and he c'rs, id 3bet and collect two bets from both of them and then lead the turn b/c at this point, you can lay it down to a turn raise if a club hits the board because of the strength you showed earlier.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. The fish could be playing T8, T7, J8 or 96 this way very easily.

Krishan

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Woa how can you not CR the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't want to lose the fish and be HU OOP w/ a solid player on the later streets.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

In many hands this would be a legitimate consideration, but I don't think that's applicable here. With this flop and the size of the pot, you're going to the river, and most likely showdown. Once you've decided this, then the proper thing to do is to try to increase your chances of winning the pot, by raising out the third guy, EVEN if he is a fish and EVEN if there's a good chance you'll be reraised. Keep in mind that getting reraised isn't the worst thing in the world since you have 8 outs for the straight, 2 outs for trips and likely 3 outs for two-pair (especially if the third guy goes out). With 2 cards to come, you're almost even money heads up. And if the fish calls, and the other guy reraises, you're still getting proper return with 11 outs. So reraising is a no-brainer.

Plus there is some chance that you have the best hand. And if you don't want to play heads-up against the tough guy, you can simply back off and check and call the rest of the way after the fish is gone.

I'm sorry, but failure to checkraise that flop is such a glaring mistake that I can't even get to the rest of the play of the hand.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

I check-raise this flop for sure. U dont want the guy in the middle in this pot, who cares if he is a fish, u got his fishy dead money when he cold called u pre-flop. Now get rid of him. This is a classic case where u might be ahead, or u might not, but u should raise anyways cause it is a disaster when u do have the best hand but u let the guy in the middle stay in to beat u when he would have folded. BTW, the fact that u have the straight draw IMO makes the raise even better because u still have a bunch of equity when the button has u beat. One more thing, if this game was full and we could greatly narrow down the solid players range, then your line has way more merit because u are so often behind. That is not the case here though.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but failure to checkraise that flop is such a glaring mistake that I can't even get to the rest of the play of the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think thats a pretty big overstatement.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Woa how can you not CR the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't want to lose the fish and be HU OOP w/ a solid player on the later streets.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot is getting mighty large, fish could have anything and losing him is not a problem imo. Our hand is still very vulnerable.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
he didn't want to lose the fish and be HU OOP w/ a solid player on the later streets.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

so he would rather play a multiway pot OOP against that same solid player and a fish? Then when he finally gets to use the fish for protection on the river he doesn't use it?

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

I think I should have checkraised the flop. It was just a mistake. I folded the river, which I am still not sure on. I was really distracted this entire hand and was unhappy with my play.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

I like a leadout on the flop. If you take this route you will get more information without losing the fish. Your hand is likely much stronger against the fish here than against the good player, but you have no information yet about how that flop hit either of them. I don't like the position you were in for the rest of the hand because of your play earlier, so it is difficult for me to suggest plays from this point forward.
I definately disagree with the check call flop, check raise is better.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

Can we get more comments on the river? Do people think this is easy call? easy fold? Too tough to say?

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

I think the river is a solid fold, but I play short-handed only occasionally.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

mmm this is a really really good spot to steal and I think that's what your wondering preflop 3bettor is doing.

but I think this should be a fold because you still have the fish to act behind you on the river and there's a chance he has a smallish club if not the same straight and look him up.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

River is close. In close situations, I usually take the conservative approach and call. This way I can sleep at night.

(However, if an overcall is close, I usually don't because I can find out what he has without calling. I don't mind making mistakes so much as I mind not knowing. Likewise, playing live, I'm less likely to call someone who likes to show bluffs not only because I can find out the info w/out calling, but also because people who like to show(off) bluffs are less likely to bluff.)

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

how can the button not have a club? he didn't 3-bet the flop or turn on that board. I guess it's remotely possible he was waiting to raise a safe turn but it was a club. but he rarely has an overpair, and he never has overcards without a club.

also, if the cold caller and button play a lot, especially with each other, that makes it an easier fold, since he should know better than to bluff two people, including a loose one who liked his hand, on that board

Results
 

I folded. The river bettor had aces no club. The fish had 56 no club for a flopped straight. $2600 that could have been mine.

Re: Results
 

awesome read by me

how does aces no club not 3-bet the flop?

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would call river and likely play the entire hand the same way you did.

you could have raise on the flop or turn, but then you would have had to make a post like "was this chip spewing cause the guy 3 bet me"

[/ QUOTE ]

qouting one's own post seems to be the thing these days. i saw daryn do it.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Woa how can you not CR the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
how can the button not have a club?

[/ QUOTE ]

Play enough poker and you'll see everything. I wouldn't argue the fold was wrong, but I would argue that the refusal/inability the see that his hand may possibly be good is a major flaw.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
awesome read by me

how does aces no club not 3-bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

And why bet that river? It's a really bad river bet into 2.

Krishan

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I folded. The river bettor had aces no club. The fish had 56 no club for a flopped straight. $2600 that could have been mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had CR the flop, you're seeing the river, right? AND you win more than $2600. (maybe)

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

Missed folds on all streets.

Preflop, I'm not raising with this UTG.
I just don't think 109s is good enough to play five-handed.

On the flop, a fold should be considered because it's unlikely one pair will be the best hand and your draw really
isn't that good.

On the turn, the pot may be bigger, but your hand has gone down in value. The only chance is an offsuit jack or six and that might not be good enough.

On the river, you can't call with a non-nut straight and a four-flush on board.

Just give this one up.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]


Preflop, I'm not raising with this UTG.
I just don't think 109s is good enough to play five-handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree but I'm assuming it's not your default play and that your image and table conditions were such that you thought you could turn a profit here and now.

Krishan

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

I think T9s is plenty of hand with to open in the hijack

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Missed folds on all streets.

Preflop, I'm not raising with this UTG.
I just don't think 109s is good enough to play five-handed.

On the flop, a fold should be considered because it's unlikely one pair will be the best hand and your draw really
isn't that good.

On the turn, the pot may be bigger, but your hand has gone down in value. The only chance is an offsuit jack or six and that might not be good enough.

On the river, you can't call with a non-nut straight and a four-flush on board.

Just give this one up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you for real?!!

Pre-flop: folding's okay. but raising every now and then is necessary to keep them quessing. NOBODY playing 5-handed can afford to just fold T9s everytime. What the hell WOULD you play? It is simply not that bad a hand. We're not talking 74s here.

flop: You'd consider folding?!! With this flop and this pot, I'm committed to the river. How the hell do you ever expect to win any hands if you fold these types of hands on the flop.

turn: Again, if you're prepared to fold here, you're going to get pushed out of way too many pots. Doubt you can ever book a winning session of any length.

river: A fold here's not unreasonable. But the statement 'you can't call...' shows how limited your imagination is.

Either you post is a troll (and I fell for it)... or ...

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think T9s is plenty of hand with to open in the hijack

[/ QUOTE ]

I go with it in CO, but not everytime. Maybe the table conditions differ enough at high limits to make this an easy raise.

Krishan

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I should have checkraised the flop. It was just a mistake. I folded the river, which I am still not sure on. I was really distracted this entire hand and was unhappy with my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a river fold is fine fwiw.
-James

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

i dont know how to think for myself, but all i know is that everyone is wrong and that stoxtrader is right.

Re: Results
 

If you are going to leave the fish in the pot I think this is a perfect spot to bet the river because solid player can't raise without a club and fish will call with plenty of hands without a club. with the overcall by fish you might get solid played to fold a non A or K club.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont know how to think for myself, but all i know is that everyone is wrong and that stoxtrader is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

About what??

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

i'd have cred the flop. you're ahead too often on the river to fold it for one bet.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would call river and likely play the entire hand the same way you did.

you could have raise on the flop or turn, but then you would have had to make a post like "was this chip spewing cause the guy 3 bet me"

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

checkraise the flop!

The river is tough. Folding is probably best, but i definately prefer betting over calling. Fish will call with many hands you beat and there is allways the small chance of folding a club.

Re: 100/200 9Ts
 

Yes, I should have checkraised the flop.