I improve - I check
 

30/60 game online - 10 handed.

Unknown player limps in MP1, bad loose aggressive player who thinks he is good limps in MP3, I raise in the hijack with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], clinically insane aggressive big blind raises (he could have anything), the two limpers called, and I cap. 4 to the flop for 16sb

Flop: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, MP1 Bets, MP3 calls, I call, BB folds.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to me - I check.

River: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

MP1 bets, MP3 raises, I call or fold?

I think all streets are debatable.

Re: I improve - I check
 

I think you have to call since you under-played your hand. I'm curious to hear what others think of the turn check. I do this sometimes against players who are not oblivious but the pot is big already and begs protection.

- Jim

Re: I improve - I check
 

I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

Re: I improve - I check
 

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I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

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Because if he's ahead he has just about zero danger of losing the hand.

Re: I improve - I check
 

Im interested in why you rule out raising as an option. Do you think MP1 is trying to checkraise the turn with a 4 in his hand?

It seems like if you were to list the reasons for checking behind on the turn, that list might include: "they might play at me on the river with worse hands". So I think the decision is between calling and raising, and since any ace will likely pay you off if you raise, I like raising better.

Re: I improve - I check
 

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I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

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Because if he's ahead he has just about zero danger of losing the hand.

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What of the missed value here, though?

Re: I improve - I check
 

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I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

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Because if he's ahead he has just about zero danger of losing the hand.

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Re: I improve - I check
 

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I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

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Because if he's ahead he has just about zero danger of losing the hand.

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What of the missed value here, though?

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Re: I improve - I check
 

How is that a good reason to check though? He might as well bet for value and attempt to stop someone from out drawing him to something like two pair...

Re: I improve - I check
 

I'm aggressive. I bet that turn, and I don't have to worry about that happening on the river most of the time.

Re: I improve - I check
 

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How is that a good reason to check though? He might as well bet for value and attempt to stop someone from out drawing him to something like two pair...

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The board is already paired and there are no overcards. People have 2 outs at most.

Re: I improve - I check
 

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30/60 game online - 10 handed.

Unknown player limps in MP1, bad loose aggressive player who thinks he is good limps in MP3, I raise in the hijack with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], clinically insane aggressive big blind raises (he could have anything), the two limpers called, and I cap. 4 to the flop for 16sb

Flop: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, MP1 Bets, MP3 calls, I call, BB folds.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to me - I check.

River: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

MP1 bets, MP3 raises, I call or fold?

I think all streets are debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like mp3s play on the turn if he has 44. He correctly put you on overcards with an ace when you called the flop.

Re: I improve - I check
 

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I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

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Because if he's ahead he has just about zero danger of losing the hand.

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What of the missed value here, though?

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The problem is Max must pay off the LAG once he spikes an Ace, and the LAG called a flop bet after the preflop action made it very likely that Max has a hand like AA/KK/QQ and is raising the flop behind him.

Re: I improve - I check
 

They could have 3 outs if they have an ace with lower kicker. Also I could end up splitting the pot with another ace if a K or Q quuen comes on the river.

However, I think the likelihood of someone else having an ace is low.

This particular board is one of the few that I would consider checking on. If there were no pair on board or and straight and flush draws present then giving a free card would be a mistake. It still might be a mistake here, but I don't know. That's why I posted.

Re: I improve - I check
 

I don't understand why you would fold the river. My first thought would be to raise. But on second thought it might be better to go for the overcall.

And I would have bet the turn, for value. The LAG might call and MP1 might call when he holds an 8.

Re: I improve - I check
 

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I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if he's ahead he has just about zero danger of losing the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What of the missed value here, though?

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The problem is Max must pay off the LAG once he spikes an Ace, and the LAG called a flop bet after the preflop action made it very likely that Max has a hand like AA/KK/QQ and is raising the flop behind him.

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I don't think you can deduce this just becaues he's a LAG. That, and we're ahead of two of 2/3rds of that range.

Re: I improve - I check
 

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I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

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Because if he's ahead he has just about zero danger of losing the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What of the missed value here, though?

[/ QUOTE ]

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The problem is Max must pay off the LAG once he spikes an Ace, and the LAG called a flop bet after the preflop action made it very likely that Max has a hand like AA/KK/QQ and is raising the flop behind him.

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I don't think you can deduce this just becaues he's a LAG. That, and we're ahead of two of 2/3rds of that range.

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What are you talking about?

Re: I improve - I check
 

I don't think you understood his comment. Those are the hands I might have.

The fact that the LAG didn't raise the flop most likely means that he is either drawing dead or already has me crushed. I doubt he has an 8 or a pocket pair.

The other guy most likely has 2 outs.

I do not think I get much action unless I am already beat and it might be worth taking the small chance of losing this pot to induce a bluff or save bets when I am behind. I am not sure.

Re: I improve - I check
 

Your preflop play and postflop play are not consistent. You ram and jammed with AJs preflop (which I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) and made a big pot and then played the turn like there was 2 BB sitting out there instead of 10 BB. If the pot had like 2 BB in it then okay, maybe getting tricky or whatever trying to avoid a check raise or get a curiosity call or something out of one of them on the river might make checking the turn be a good play. But the pot is really big in this hand. So, bet the turn. No need to give free cards, there could be as many as 4 or 5 outs to beat you or some Q or K hitting to make a random A chop with you or whatever and you let them take a free shot at you by checking. If you get check raised then you are going to call down anyway so who cares about that. Bet. Save the fancy trappy dodge the raise stuff for when there are scraps out there, not Thanksgiving.

Re: I improve - I check
 

I agree that the size of the pot is the factor that most strongly conflicts with checking. The dead money is more important than any additional bets I can collect on the river.

Re: I improve - I check
 

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I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if he's ahead he has just about zero danger of losing the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What of the missed value here, though?

[/ QUOTE ]

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The problem is Max must pay off the LAG once he spikes an Ace, and the LAG called a flop bet after the preflop action made it very likely that Max has a hand like AA/KK/QQ and is raising the flop behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can deduce this just becaues he's a LAG. That, and we're ahead of two of 2/3rds of that range.

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What are you talking about?

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Sorry, Max is right. Misread your post.

Re: I improve - I check
 

Bet the turn. You probably have the best hand and now is a good time to make a bet or two from at least the lag. He'll want to see the river card and will pay to. He might not try to run a bluff on the river, nor bet, nor pay you off with a worse hand on the river but he will on the turn. Let him give you a bet to see the river that most likely won't give him a winner. I agree that if you are check-raised on the turn you are now in a tight spot as to whether to pay two more big bets to have a chance at the pot or to get out. I'd bet the turn and go from there. If check-raised I'd pay it off regardless of the river unless there is some read that tells me I'm almost always beat in this spot. I'd call the river and go for an overcall as the hand was actually played out though.

Re: I improve - I check
 

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I'm very interested in why you checked this turn.

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Because if he's ahead he has just about zero danger of losing the hand.

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so are you checking to give people a chance at making a second best hand or because you are worried about someone having a 4?

in my oppinion neither one of these is worth the missed value

also theres no way im folding the river

Re: I improve - I check
 

I must say... I am pretty astounded at the replies to this post.

This turn check is a relatively standard play, for me at least. Not that it is done all of the time but, rather, it is used a certain proportion of the time.

First, the more drawless the board is, the safer the play and the less downside. OK, duh, that's obvious. The check behind is a game theory type play (at least the way I think I use it) and is made out of strength. We have the best hand here a huge % of the time. We want to extract big bets.

Bear with me... If we bet the turn we may end up dragging the pot right there and winning an additional zero bets.

Hopefully....

MP1 will read the check behind as weak and take a stab at it on the river with his J or A. MP3 may have whiffed a CR on the turn (or a CC) with his weak A and either call MP1 or raise.

If MP1 checks the river, MP3 may be induced to take a stab at it with air or even a J only or his A.

The point being that if hero bets the turn he pretty much is looking at winning zero bets to 3 bets thru the river. By rope a doping the turn and being led into on the river, hero stands to gains more.

More intelligent players than I can find the "break even" point of this play by weighting the likelihood of each of the choices and I would love to see that analysis.

Lastly, I raise/call this river because you have heretofore underrepresented your hand. Villain just can't read you as holding top 2.

Forgive the disjointedness of the foregoing... I running out of the office.