Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

I have been trying to get into the mindset of atheism and have an honest question. I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven. I believe this to be true. However, I believe they are a reflection of God's nature and are eternal. How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic? Is it blind faith? Thanks in advance.

His Grace is Sufficient
Brady

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

Hi,
I'm not an atheist, but axioms are so basic and obvious that they are self-evident. Thus, they require no proof. As for where an atheist believes these axioms come from... they simply exist due to the necessity that our reality is logical. i.e. our universe has always existed or came into existence by random occurence, and since our universe is based on logic, basic axioms must hold.

I'm not sure this is the best explanation, but basically I am saying that because our universe is logical by its very nature, then the basic axioms which follow naturally from logic have "existed" since the inception of the universe.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic?

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The same way I'm sure the sun isn't going to turn into a dragon's ass and shoot fire at me.

Self organising systems such as the brain necessarily develop certain internal rules that make them functional. We observe events and generalise them. We see effects and postulate causes. We draw links between related items. This is a basic component of our brain architecture - as well as that of animals. Logic is just a refinement of this process.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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Self organising systems such as the brain necessarily develop certain internal rules that make them functional. We observe events and generalise them. We see effects and postulate causes. We draw links between related items. This is a basic component of our brain architecture - as well as that of animals. Logic is just a refinement of this process.


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How about a non-self organizing system like a computer, can it develop certain internal rules? I can look at a line and think about a point outside that line and invision ( at least in Euclidean geometry ) a single parallel. From there, I can derive all sorts of fun formulas. Will a computer ever be able to determine on its own, without specific programming, self-evident truths?

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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I have been trying to get into the mindset of atheism and have an honest question. I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven. I believe this to be true. However, I believe they are a reflection of God's nature and are eternal. How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic? Is it blind faith? Thanks in advance.

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The only reasonable way to prove anything is through reason so obviously trying to prove the basic logic fundamentals through reason would beg the question. Luckily, we dont need to prove them because they are obviously true.

Lets looks specifically at a couple rules, one mathematical and one logical.

A) 2+2 = 4,

I know this true because I understand the meanings of its parts. I can visualize 2 apples added onto 2 apples and realize this is the same as visualizing 4 apples. God is not part of my mental confirmation of its truth. I dont need to consider how God is or might be. It would be true in worlds with no God, or in a world where some God willed 2+2 to equal 13.

B) P or Q, not P, hence Q
This rule of logic is called disjunctive syllogism. Again this is obviously true. If you assume the two premises then the truth of Q should be obvious to you. Small children, retards, even dogs can do this logic. When using this basic inference you can never go from truth to falsity.

Its not blind faith. These truths can be scientifically demonstrated to work in the real world. If the mathematical and logical rules didnt hold then the computer you are sitting at wouldn't work.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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Will a computer ever be able to ...

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The one bet I wish I'd made every time it's been offered is "A computer will never be able to ..."
Not grabbing the 'chess' one ( which was the biggie until not to long ago) was my biggest lost opportunity.

There is no reason a computer won't be able to do anything cognitive and it won't need as much special programming as we do since it would be efficiently designed.

luckyme

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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I have been trying to get into the mindset of atheism and have an honest question. I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven. I believe this to be true. However, I believe they are a reflection of God's nature and are eternal.

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Delete the bit in bold from the above quote and you'll get the basic atheist perspective (i.e. nature is fundamentally logical).

Consider for a moment what it would mean if nature wasn't logical. For a start it would mean something could be true and false at the same time. The implications of this are staggering for literally everything.

Therefore, at a minimum, the rules of logic are a practical necessity. Whether they can be proven or not is irrelvant since we need them to be true if we are to function. If they are false, all are efforts to understand anything are doomed to fail.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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I have been trying to get into the mindset of atheism...

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It's a big error to think of reasons for atheism as monolithic. Atheism is a conclusion people reach.. "there is no god", there are many routes to it, not just the rather logical ones we read on here. Most of the atheists I know arrive at it by much more 'common sense' routes than disproving the anthropomorphic or ontological claims.

In fact, the commonest reason I run across for atheism is "why would anyone believe that crap", and, I have to admit, unless you are a believer the xtrian beliefs particularly are pretty far out. Buddhism is a more 'reasonable' religion.

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I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven.

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You need to get out more. Even if their claims are true, it has nothing to do with atheism ( it maybe part of their route to atheism, but so what). That would be like believing everybody at the bus stop took the bus there.

luckyme

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

A creator seems far more logical to me than believing in this soup which life crawled from with no evidence. At least people have said that there is little evidence for belief in a God... atheism is a hope that we are insignifficant, purposeless beings that are going to bite the dust soon enough. There will be no repurcussions for the life we have lived, utter meaningless.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic? Is it blind faith?


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Good questions. No atheist worldview can rationally account for logic, science or morality. Getting them to admit it is difficult even though atheists like Nietzsche and Russell make similar statements.

If you want an exercise in futility try getting them to admit the universe is irrational. Don't bother pointing out how many atheist philosophers have said so.

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atheism is a hope that we are insignifficant, purposeless beings that are going to bite the dust soon enough.

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This is catagorially false. Atheism has nothing to do with "hope" for anything. It's simply the the lack in any belief in a specific supernatural explanation for the universe.

Let me put it this way, I don't think Christianity is a reasonable explanation for the universe. Furthermore, I have never come across any supernatural belief system that is either. All atheists feel this way and this is what makes us atheists. Nothing more.

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If you want an exercise in futility try getting them to admit the universe is irrational. Don't bother pointing out how many atheist philosophers have said so.

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OK, I'll bite. In what sense is the universe "irrational" and what "atheist philosophers" say that it is?

I have a feeling they weren't using the word "irrational" in the same sense that I do when I apply it to the universe.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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atheism is a..

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There is only one ending for a sentence starting that way. ".... claim there is no god". To think otherwise is like believing that all the people on the subway are going to your home. Nope, they're all just on the subway, how, why, etc, can't be derived in a general case statement for their presense on the subway.

There is no 'race' of atheists' or 'atheists creed' or ' atheistic personality' or any other grouping.

"theism is a hope that we are insignificant, purposeless beings that can only have meaning in our life if there is a Casper-the-Great in the sky who will punish us for coveting our neighbours mule." That would be a sad excuse for a meaningful life, fit best for sado-maso pairing.

luckyme, hoping your next few high school years cheer you up a bit.

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But it does mean that you believe that we are in fact insignifficant, purposeless beings, and that when we die the dust is our home. Is this what you believe?

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I'm as happy as a beaver. I'm glad I don't believe in that sad excuse for a meaningful life that you painted.

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In what sense is the universe "irrational" and what "atheist philosophers" say that it is?


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Most, if not all, existentialist philosophers. It is irrational if there is no purpose or meaning to it, if it is just the accidental twitch in cosmic nothingness. Many responses stated an inanimate object can't be irrational and no amount of explaining would move them.

The real kicker is when one or two seem to agree but then say something like "Why does the universe have to have meaning?".

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But it does mean that you believe that we are in fact insignifficant, purposeless beings, and that when we die the dust is our home. Is this what you believe?

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As an atheist I have no reason to believe/expect anything more. I accept this as a reality I can't change.

You could say I'm serendipitous about it.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

If you're really so curious, take an epistemology class so you can learn some of the "standard" views of how both theists and atheists alike claim to know anything.
Or maybe bother to read some books.

There are as many answers for how we know as there are people claiming to have answers. And then there are the few and far between, theist and atheist alike, who know they know nothing.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

It's unfortunate the concept of "level-confusion" and emergent properties hasn't become better known yet. Attributes at one level of a complex system don't carry through to other levels. Thinking 'selfish-genes' result in 'selfish people' is a classic example.

Here, whether the universe is irrational or has purpose or meaning is irrelevant to whether lilacs or cod or people's lives have any of those qualities. Attributes reside at the level they are found. Entities at higher levels develop attributes not found at lower levels, so to look for them there is like wondering why flour doesn't swell up in the bag.

luckyme

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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who know they know nothing.


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You do see the contradiction in this, right?

I believe true knowledge is possible because God exists and has made us capable of knowledge. Our mistake is either that we know nothing or we know everything.

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Most, if not all, existentialist philosophers.

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OK, I was pretty sure you were talking about Sartre etc. Rest assured that what they have in mind when they say the "universe is irrational" is completely different from what I mean when I say it. It's perfectly possible for the universe to be both absurd (in the Sartre sense) and ruthlessly logical at the same time.

What I'm saying is that the universe is ruthlessly logical (laws of physics etc.). One of the results of this is that the universe has no interest whatsoever in our human desires. This, I believe, is what Sartre was getting at with his talk about absurdity (the lack of any relation between our desires and the universe's desires).

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about Sartre's POV. My knowledge of his writings/ideas is rather limited. Nevertheless, he was mostly talking about human desires and how they relate to the universe as a whole. I'm just talking about the universe as a whole. Human desires don't enter into it when it comes to the fundamental validity of the rules of logic as far as I'm concerned.

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Being part of the process is NOT insignificant or purposeless. Life is what you make of it.

I often wonder what would happen if science ever DID prove the non-existence of god. Would all theists jump off bridges because they could see no significance in living another day? Un-friggin real.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven.

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You need to get out more. Even if their claims are true, it has nothing to do with atheism ( it maybe part of their route to atheism, but so what). That would be like believing everybody at the bus stop took the bus there.

luckyme

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I didn't say it had anything to do with just atheism, I just said I hear many atheists claim it. Logic seems to be a popular "route" to atheism (from what I have seen). I guess that is the "route" I am trying to understand. But my mind is inclined to question the nature of logic and where it comes from before I use it as a means of what I believe. I can't see, smell, touch, hear, or taste logic. Yet I believe it. Why? It just seems inconsistent to me that some people claim they rely on nothing but empirical evidence (I am not saying all atheists believe this) while simultaneously believing in logic, then go on to insist a person is irrational if they believe in God. Am I misunderstanding this position? And do you believe faith is required to use logic?

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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A creator seems far more logical to me than believing in this soup which life crawled from with no evidence. At least people have said that there is little evidence for belief in a God... atheism is a hope that we are insignifficant, purposeless beings that are going to bite the dust soon enough. There will be no repurcussions for the life we have lived, utter meaningless.

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I find it interesting that some members of the human race developed a crude cerebral structure in their lower intestinal lining. This allows them to construct certain thoughts and opinions entirely within their anus.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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A creator seems far more logical to me than believing in this soup which life crawled from with no evidence. At least people have said that there is little evidence for belief in a God... atheism is a hope that we are insignifficant, purposeless beings that are going to bite the dust soon enough. There will be no repurcussions for the life we have lived, utter meaningless.

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Who says there is a 'little' evidence of god - there is absolutely NO evidence of god. That is why they call it faith. You don't need faith to believe in something if there is evidence for it. Thus atheist don't need faith - they see evidence of their logical beliefs everywhere.

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It just seems inconsistent to me that some people claim they rely on nothing but empirical evidence (I am not saying all atheists believe this) while simultaneously believing in logic, then go on to insist a person is irrational if they believe in God. Am I misunderstanding this position? And do you believe faith is required to use logic?



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Ha. Welcome to the insanity wagon.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

Though i may not agree with you in this case-that was funny.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

"I often wonder what would happen if science ever DID prove the non-existence of god. Would all theists jump off bridges because they could see no significance in living another day? Un-friggin real."

Reverse that question, and give your answer.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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"I often wonder what would happen if science ever DID prove the non-existence of god. Would all theists jump off bridges because they could see no significance in living another day? Un-friggin real."

Reverse that question, and give your answer.

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You didnt think this through. The answer is that if I saw proof god existed, I would not jump of a bridge, I would convert to the relevant religion.

Now you give your answer to the original question.

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Though i may not agree with you in this case-that was funny.

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Thank you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't make fun of Christians. I make fun of imbeciles.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

It's a rdiculous question was my point. Scratch that. I mean oh heavens yes I'd just gather my family and all my believing friends, go to a church and drink poisoned kool-ade on a Sunday and just end it all.

Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
 

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It's a rdiculous question was my point. Scratch that. I mean oh heavens yes I'd just gather my family and all my believing friends, go to a church and drink poisoned kool-ade on a Sunday and just end it all.

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If I might ask the question in a sincere fashion, what would you do if it were sufficiently "proven" to you that there was no God or afterlife? (And didn't believe because of Pascal's wager, etc.) I'm curious about this because it often seems that Christians hold the mortal life in relative apathy (and justifiably so).

And ridiculous or not, this is a philosophy forum, and we should not be strangers to the impossible but interesting "what if" scenarios.

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If I ever found out there was a god, I certainly wouldn't jump off a bridge. I might even become more religious than you are now.

This is what amazes me about theists who try and contemplate the mind of an atheist. As if all atheists have heathenistic reasons for refusing to conform. Most atheists are atheists for the exact same reasons you might not believe in Nessie, Yeti, or Ogres. It is not some conscious effort to rebel. It's just that there are no legitimate reasons to believe in such things.

What I was trying to get at with my question, was that if there ever was a reason to believe in god, I honestly don't think most atheists would be upset. They would simply change their beliefs. If god was disproved however, I doubt most theists could handle it.

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If I might ask the question in a sincere fashion, what would you do if it were sufficiently "proven" to you that there was no God or afterlife?

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I was an atheist for 10 + years, so I lived what I would do for quite a while.

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And ridiculous or not, this is a philosophy forum, and we should not be strangers to the impossible but interesting "what if" scenarios.

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Touche.

However, the ridiculous I was speaking of was the type of reaction he was looking for which was obvious taking the context of the question.

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If god was disproved however, I doubt most theists could handle it.


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That is bullsh*t, and says much about you.

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yeah, definately.

If I believed God and the afterlife were real, I'd be on the Jesus train lickety-split.

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This, I believe, is what Sartre was getting at with his talk about absurdity


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This is partly true. But the bigger picture is that existentialism is itself the logical outworking of a worldview that rejects God, which is all non-theistic worldviews. If man is the highest rational being then since he is obviously not omniscient and can make no sense of existence the universe is irrational. That includes human reason itself. And that is absurd.

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What I was trying to get at with my question, was that if there ever was a reason to believe in god, I honestly don't think most atheists would be upset. They would simply change their beliefs.

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Change my beliefs? Yes. Be happy about it? If it's the Christian God, no. I loathe going to church and I've grown rather fond of certain sins. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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If god was disproved however, I doubt most theists could handle it.


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That is bullsh*t, and says much about you.

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If I had nothing and I found a million dollars, that'd be pretty damn nifty. If I had a million dollars and I lost it, I don't think I could handle it (except that I'm pretty resilient and I'd pick up the pieces somehow). I think this is what Lestat meant.

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"(except that I'm pretty resilient and I'd pick up the pieces somehow). "

Exactly, and I'll let Lestat clarify what he meant,because I think he meant otherwise-again based on the context of his post.