Craps
 

Is there any recommended resources for how to throw dice? Is there any way to alter the throw or grip to be +EV at the game? Is it similar to blackjack, do casinos kick you right out if you're throwing suspiciously? I'm a total novice and have basically no clue, so anything interesting you know about the subject is much appreciated, thanks!

Re: Craps
 

Positive expectation craps is a pure grind. Just go to any casino and watch the higher level tables where you will see several shooters who are grinding out a living by rolling dem bones. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously though, do a google search under dice setting or precision shooting or go to rec.gambling.craps and do a search. You will find some information on the subject, but I am pretty sure it is all b.s.

Re: Craps
 

The very very short answer is no. Cheating is the only way of beating the game...if you can get away with it, which is very very unlikely.

Re: Craps
 

IMO, advantage craps is only a theory which has not been satisfyingly proven yet. the main problem is that the theory involves the physical skill of throwing dice rather than something mathematical like counting cards or calculating pot odds where a long-term EV can be determined in advance. there are also too many random factors like table size, felt and wall composition, extraneous chips laid about, etc that could impede actual performance and results.

I have not personally tried to read any books on the subject, but the noted authors in this "field" are Frank Scoblete, 'Sharpshooter', and more recently, Stanford Wong. believe at your own risk.

Re: Craps
 

What I googled up seemed to mostly be dice-setting, but mentioned something they called a "whip-throw", which presumably puts enough backspin on the dice to basically keep them on the four sides that are spinning vertically while the dice are getting thrown. Presumably, if you could eliminate even one face of one die on some percentage of your throws you could place advantageous bets, since craps has such a relatively small HA.

In terms of dice-setting, over how many rolls would you have to have a significant difference from the normal distribution to be significant? It would be smaller than the number of required hands in a significant sample size in poker, because there's a smaller number of outcomes, correct?

I guess I'm partially interested because if everybody thinks it's voodoo, there wouldn't be a lot of heat attached, correct? Are you allowed to set the dice in plain view, or is that frowned upon?

Re: Craps
 

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Are you allowed to set the dice in plain view, or is that frowned upon?

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In most places, it's encouraged. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Craps
 

I have taken a dice setting/precision shooting seminar in Vegas. Yes, it only lasted for the weekend, but by the end, I was throwing the dice for significantly more rolls before I would crap out. And the guys who were teaching the course definitely threw for longer periods than an average shooter. And these guys had been doing this for a living for years.

Sharpshooter has a book called Get the Edge at Craps which is one of the better books on the subject. However, you really need to learn how to do it in person. PM me if you're interested and I can pass along the info from the guys I learned from.

Because of the current "questionability" of precision shooting, a lot of craps dealers still don't believe in it. However, if you are taking too long to set the dice or throw them, you will be asked to hurry it along. This is usually just to keep the game moving though. They will also ask you to hit the back wall. To my knowledge, no one has ever been barred for setting and precision shooting dice, but there were times when we all showed up to a couple joints and we got a little heat. After all, every shooter was taking his sweet time. But it's a lot like counting cards, where part of learning is being able to do it quickly and smoothly enough that it doesn't look out of place.

Re: Craps
 

I cannot believe I'm hearing this!

Is there no end to people thinking they can beat an unbeatable game? Casino owners really love you guys.

Re: Craps
 

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... I was throwing the dice for significantly more rolls before I would crap out.

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Apparently they didn't spend a lot of time on terminology.

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... we all showed up to a couple joints and we got a little heat. After all, every shooter was taking his sweet time. But it's a lot like counting cards...

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It's nothing like counting cards. What you mistook for "heat", was frustration over the pace of the game. If you were putting up any action, the response would have been comps.

Re: Craps
 

Why does everyone think they can get rich in this game? Especially grinding it out with nickel cheques. I used to deal and supervise craps. All "precision shooters" lost like the others. Scoblete and his "crew" played at my table several times, and lost just like the other suckers.
The only reason we put heat on these guys was because they brought the game to a grinding halt.

Re: Craps
 

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Why does everyone think they can get rich in this game? Especially grinding it out with nickel cheques. I used to deal and supervise craps. All "precision shooters" lost like the others. Scoblete and his "crew" played at my table several times, and lost just like the other suckers.
The only reason we put heat on these guys was because they brought the game to a grinding halt.

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Because people are stupid.

Re: Craps
 

Why do you people refuse to accept the possibility that precision shooting works? Is it because it cannot be proven mathematically? Well, for what it's worth, it cannot be DISproven mathematically like betting progressions. For one weekend, I was witness to guys throwing the dice for 15 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour at a time, and these were not exceptions. These long rolls came at a much greater occurrence than what the statistics would show (which I believe the average roll is around 8 throws before crapping out).
Yes, I too like to see the cold, hard numbers before giving anything absolute merit, so I would not bet everything I own on whether or not precision shooting works, but I will say that what I saw that weekend was pretty incredible and the gentlemen running it gave me no reason to believe that what was occurring was unusual. It was the norm for them.

Considering you guys have very little or no experience with precision shooting, it's ignorant of you to dismiss it so quickly. I'm done talking about it. If you are interested, PM me and I can pass along some info. If not, please try to make arguments that have some substance. To the guy who was a craps dealer and watched Scoblete lose, who cares? That's like saying, "Counting isn't for real, Stanford Wong was at my table and he lost a bundle." It's totally fallacious logic that just because you were witness to a couple losing sessions we should dismiss an entire type of advantage play.

Re: Craps
 

Pay me $5 and I will waste my time explaining to you why this shooting thing is a bunch of BS. Or, you can find your own answer and realize it for yourself at no cost.

Re: Craps
 

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Pay me $5 and I will waste my time explaining to you why this shooting thing is a bunch of BS. Or, you can find your own answer and realize it for yourself at no cost.

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Or, great cost. Whatever.

Re: Craps
 

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Why do you people refuse to accept the possibility that precision shooting works? Is it because it cannot be proven mathematically?

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Pretty much.
The drop, win and hold play into my belief as well.

Re: Craps
 

Watching shooters roll for over the weekend does not justify precision shooting. Your sample size was not big enough. Ever hear of a statistical anomily?

Re: Craps
 

You have got to be kidding. The drop, win, and hold is proof that it doesn't work? Just like in blackjack, the VAST majority of craps players aren't precision shooting, and the ones that are aren't doing it correctly. And those that are, it's still possible that those that do aren't bankrolled enough for the swings. That's like saying that the drop, win, and hold at blackjack is proof that counting doesn't work. Sheetwise, I'm surprised that this idiotic logic is coming from you. To the person who said that a weekend of shooting craps isn't enough data, yes, I completely agree. Completely! In fact, at this seminar, I was hoping that someone there had compiled data from their results so that I could see something more concrete and long term, but there was no such data to my disappointment. But I will say that the way that the course teachers reacted during the rolls made me think that it wasn't some anomaly. These guys were used to seeing these long rolls on a regular basis.

Re: Craps
 

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That's like saying that the drop, win, and hold at blackjack is proof that counting doesn't work. Sheetwise, I'm surprised that this idiotic logic is coming from you.

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What I said was -

"The drop, win and hold play into my belief as well."

It's interesting to note that very few casinos believed blackjack could be beat until the win and hold numbers proved them wrong (ah, the good old days).

Dice setting is unlike card counting, and other strategies that can be simulated. I've never seen a large sample of data from a controlled study. Even then, the range of skill in individual shooters has to be wide.

As I've said before -- I don't know. I simply believe it's unlikely. But then, I've also watched close up magicians perform, and even though I knew what they were doing, I couldn't detect it. It's sure possible.

Does it require faith?
 

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Yes, I too like to see the cold, hard numbers before giving anything absolute merit ...

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Given that setting dice (as advertised) is such a highly personalized skill, I'm not sure that simply recording sessions would resolve anything. If the shooter can't do it today -- it's possible that he could yesterday. If the shooter can't do it ever -- that doesn't mean someone else can't. What I would like to see is slow-motion video of the dice behaving as predicted, and compare it to video of random throws. If there was a significant correllation between the prediction and the recorded behavior of the dice, and the recorded patterns (bounce, spin, etc.) deviated from the random patterns -- I'd be a believer.

Re: Craps
 

The price for being stupid has gone up. Now $10.

Re: Does it require faith?
 

Good point, I would like to see that video as well.

Re: Does it require faith?
 

Well put Sheet. I would like to see that video too. To add a few details to that, though, you have to understand that precision shooting is far from a perfect skill and you are not so much controlling the dice as you are influencing them. What it boils down to is that on every throw, you are trying to keep the dice on the 2 axes and avoid the 2 inside and outside faces. This is difficult to do and does not occur every time. However, if this can be achieved only 1 out of 42 throws, then you are playing a break even game with the house.

Let me ask you this: Is there no amount of recorded results that could prove it? Say, if someone did this for 4 hours a day every day for a few years and showed positive results, wouldn't that be sufficient data?

Re: Does it require faith?
 

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Let me ask you this: Is there no amount of recorded results that could prove it? Say, if someone did this for 4 hours a day every day for a few years and showed positive results, wouldn't that be sufficient data?


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4 hours a day every day for a week would be enough to put a fairly high confidence in the results. But since, as you say, "you are trying to keep the dice on the 2 axes and avoid the 2 inside and outside faces", a video showing this can actually be controlled would be convincing.

Re: Does it require faith?
 

True, a video showing this would be more concrete, but as I mentioned before, the truth is that you are merely influencing the dice and that all we are doing is ATTEMPTING to keep it on the same 2 axes, and if we were to succeed 1 out of 42 throws, it would turn craps into +EV. Now, having this happen in 1 out of 42 throws on a video, the video itself would have to show a guy throwing the dice thousands of times to show that he is succeeding in this throw 1/42 times.
Actually, the guys who I saw throw the dice were able to do it much more frequently than this, probably 1 out of 10 throws they were able to keep on the 2 axes, but you get my point.

Re: Does it require faith?
 

I think Sheet's saying that if it can be done once intentionally, it's clearly repeatable in enough frequency after practice that you would be able to beat the game. The site I did the most reading at is: http://www.dicesetter.com/index.htm

The thing is, I didn't spot any discussion of moving up in limits, they mostly seemed to be content staying at $5 minimum tables. Aren't there people who bet black chips on the pass line? How large of a bankroll would you need to withstand the variance at a $100 pass line bet, assuming you were beating the game? It seems like very few people worldwide could even accomplish +EV shooting, much less want to do it as a job, is I guess the reason we haven't heard about it.

Is it cheating to roll the dice intending for them to stay on axis, though? Isn't that very similar to using shenanigans to put cubes that are weighted to not land on two faces into the game?

Re: Does it require faith?
 

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Actually, the guys who I saw throw the dice were able to do it much more frequently than this, probably 1 out of 10 throws they were able to keep on the 2 axes, but you get my point.

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If all you're looking at is two faces eliminated in the outcome on each die, I will wager that I can do that 4 out of 9 times. The real test here is the predictable physical movement of the die that leads to the intended outcome.

Re: Does it require faith?
 

No, it's not cheating because as opposed to using bs dice, dice setting and throwing does not involve using some sort of device other than what is available to you at the table.

Another thing. Dice control is not as simple as to say, "If they can be intentionally controlled once then with enough practice it can be done with great consistency" because it is really one of those things that cannot be perfected. Improved upon, yes, but not perfected. Much like a freethrow in basketball, you can practice it forever but still not do it everytime. And it's a much harder thing to do than put a basketball in a hole 10 feet away. But the good news is that you only have to do it a small % of the time to turn craps +EV.

Finally, I think the reason why you don't see a lot of black chippers doing this is that at that level, it could gain heat. Playing red chip craps is enough action to beat the game, because it's not like you only have 5 bucks in action. If you are playing 3 bets at a time with $15 pass line and full odds behind, you could have almost $200 in action going at all times.

Re: Does it require faith?
 

You guys will just never see the light. Free info (clue)...this stuff has already been done 30+ years ago. Hmmm...

Re: Does it require faith?
 

If this isn't cheating though, why would anybody attract any heat? Since it isn't cheating, why hasn't anybody moved up in limits and is now crushing whatever the biggest game available is? That's where I'm still very skeptical...if there are people doing this, and the casinos want action from them, why wouldn't they build a bankroll and put the most action they can on a +EV play? (the short answer is likely that they're in fact -EV, just like everyone else)

Re: Does it require faith?
 

Your question was if it isn't cheating then why would it attract heat? Um, because it's still advantage play, just like counting cards. But it does not gain as much heat because of the debate as to whether or not it's for real. Depending on the joint and who's on staff, you will see the whole spectrum of beliefs, from being paranoid about it to not believing in it to not even being aware of it.
And no one is doing this at the high roller level because that WOULD gain too much heat.

I really am surprised at the people on this site for having such a strong opinion against precision shooting without enough information to form an educated opinion. Seriously, I'd think people at this website would be attracted to the possibility that craps may be beatable and would jump at the chance to learn how and see for themselves if it's for real. But the reaction to precision shooting is as if we're talking about the Martingale. If you need mathematical, recorded proof, the book Get the Edge at Craps by Scoblete has a lot of mathematical information on this subject, which comes from thousands of recorded throws of the dice. That is the only book I've read on it. My other experience was the weekend seminar, and it was enough to make me a believer.

You guys should at least read a couple books on the subject before you decide how you feel about precision shooting. Especially with the current blackjack conditions and the fact that craps is DAMN fun, the players are cooler, the dealers are cooler and more competant, it's something worth checking out.

Re: Craps
 

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Well, for what it's worth, it cannot be DISproven mathematically like betting progressions.

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Excuse me?

Re: Does it require faith?
 

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I really am surprised at the people on this site for having such a strong opinion against precision shooting without enough information to form an educated opinion. Seriously, I'd think people at this website would be attracted to the possibility that craps may be beatable and would jump at the chance to learn how and see for themselves if it's for real. But the reaction to precision shooting is as if we're talking about the Martingale. If you need mathematical, recorded proof, the book Get the Edge at Craps by Scoblete has a lot of mathematical information on this subject, which comes from thousands of recorded throws of the dice. That is the only book I've read on it. My other experience was the weekend seminar, and it was enough to make me a believer.

You guys should at least read a couple books on the subject before you decide how you feel about precision shooting. Especially with the current blackjack conditions and the fact that craps is DAMN fun, the players are cooler, the dealers are cooler and more competant, it's something worth checking out.

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This is the exact reason you are a bone head. Since you are too dumb to research why, it will cost you $20 for me to waste my time in telling why it won't work. Are you in a time warp???

I'm waiting to hear you come back and say how much money you have made. Clue #2 There are no professional craps players in the World, period!

Re: Does it require faith?
 

To Pokereveryday, I want to extend my thanks to you for helping me see the light in my boneheaded ways. Instead of providing such ludicrous and time wasting things such as evidence, you have provided something much more valuable, which is your OPINION! And what an opinion! It's strong, passionate, and steadfast.

And to those who would say, "Well at least give us a reason as to why you feel this way," well to them you have made the bold stand that you DO have evidence, but it is going to cost $20.00 to get it. This truly is proof enough. If your reasons are worth twenty bucks, then they MUST be substantial and worthy indeed! And your confidence in this endeavor for a 20 piece has made a believer out of me. Everyone, open your windows and let it be known unto the world, "Precision shooting has been disproven! A $20 opinion says so! Huzzah!"

And while some weak and jealous hippies might call charging for your knowledge selfish, I applaud your capitalistic and "+EV" approach. It sickens me how EVERYONE on this site just gives information away for free and helps each other out like a bunch of selfless morons. But YOU have the courage, nay, the tenacity, to exploit such a flawed system for your own financial gain and ego. I commend you, sir, and judging on the direction you are headed, I look forward to seeing your name on the ballot.

Pokereveryday in '08!

Re: Craps
 

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I cannot believe I'm hearing this!

Is there no end to people thinking they can beat an unbeatable game? Casino owners really love you guys.

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WTF do you hang around here?
We all play poker and win money, and some of us also enjoy other casino games. This is the reason for this forum. If you think all casino games cannot be beaten, why do you read these threads?

Re: Does it require faith?
 

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If this isn't cheating though, why would anybody attract any heat? Since it isn't cheating, why hasn't anybody moved up in limits and is now crushing whatever the biggest game available is?

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Why can't I sit at a Blackjack game and bet $5 on Negative counts, and $500 on positive?
Its not cheating, but the casinos will give you the boot.

Re: Craps
 

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I cannot believe I'm hearing this!

Is there no end to people thinking they can beat an unbeatable game? Casino owners really love you guys.

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WTF do you hang around here?
We all play poker and win money, and some of us also enjoy other casino games. This is the reason for this forum. If you think all casino games cannot be beaten, why do you read these threads?

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Mostly for the poker because poker can be beat which is why I play it. It's one thing to ask how to play or what is the best way to play the game in question but to think an unbeatable game can be beat is just stupid and I'm going to tell you about it.

So why are you so concerned with defending chumps on this site that only plague this board???

Re: Does it require faith?
 

His claim was that part of why this is such a good gig is that there's such light heat on it. You would think that if there's such relatively light heat on it, and it's still considered "voodoo" or whatever by the powers that be, why wouldn't people go crush the big limit games at this?

Re: Craps
 

Ok im going to give a brief history of my experiences. I had this friend, which most of have had, and we're always joking and plotting ways to make money. Several years ago we're in Barne's and Noble and come across sharp shooters book and before we knew it we built a mockup in my friends garage and would spend friday nights boozing and practicing control. Well the alcohol didnt help and once moneymaker won the wsop I switched from hilow to holdem and have been playing hard ever since. My friend however stuck with the sharpshooting for several years. I can say with reservations that he bangs out many many more numbers than the average person. We've taken maybe 30 trips to casinos since we've been 21 and have played for upwards of 8 hours at a time. While that isn't the biggest sample I can say we've been doing good using John Patrick's 6&8 regression strats and some custom tailored ones to our rolls. I suck, but he's got the roll going well for him.

On the topic of casino's caring, they don't, unless your housing them. If anything you bring excitement to the table. Also don't be a bore, we tend to be loud and fun when we go. Anyway PM me if you want me to reccomend the book that REALLY spawned all this and I consider the end all be all book on the subject.

Re: Craps
 

I'm curious about precision shooting. It seems as if you got really good at it that perhaps it could increase the odds of being able to roll longer.
It seems like it would take a lot of hours to get that smooth at it though. Do you think the average person can ever really achieve that skill?

Re: Craps
 

Because of all of the attacks on me last time for bringing up precision shooting, I will keep this short. Get the Edge at Craps by Sharpshooter is a good book on the subject. For more info, PM me.