\"Value Bet\"?
 

I've seen this term thrown around a lot, but I'm not sure what it exacly means. What is the definition of a "value bet" or "betting for value"? Also, an example in the context of a poker hand would be helpful. Thanks in advance for help.

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

Basically a value bet is a bet with a weak hand. For instance if you are playing Heads up texas holdem and the board reads 479j2, if you Bet AQ into you're opponent, it would be considered a value bet.

-Dimitri

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

Well in this card player article they say its a bet on the river when one thinks one's hand is slightly better than the opponents. cardplayer article

I would have said its a bet, usually on the river, made when you judge your hand is probably better than your opponents despite action or a board that makes that judgement questionable.

--Zetack

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

I always was confused by value bet also. the term mixes with semi-bluff and draws.
Like u have QT, flop comes 289. U have nothing. Lots of limpers around, u bet here to narrow the field, and to make the pot bigger in case u hit your str8 on turn or river, u can also hit a pair since u have higher cards then on table.

I have heard people say this is semi-bluff when u come into the pot betting high. When u make a small bet only to not let people draw for free it would be a value bet.

So, what is the correct way to understand value bet?

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

When you're betting "for value", you're betting because you think you have the best hand, therefore you want your opponent(s) to call. (You can also bet draws "for value", but that gets a little more complicated to explain. Hopefully someone smarter than me will step up and talk about that.)

If you bet as a semi-bluff, you usually know that chances are you don't have the best hand at the time you make the bet, but you've still got a "reasonable" chance of making the winning hand. Also, there is the chance your opponent(s) will fold, giving you the pot.

As opposed to a value-bet, when you semi-bluff, in most instances, you're hoping everyone will fold and you can take the pot right now.

Value bet = "I sure hope everyone calls."

Semi-bluff = "I hope they fold but if they call it's not the worst thing in the world. I've still got a fighting chance."

Pure-bluff = "I have zero chance of winning this pot if anyone calls. I hope they all fold."

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

its a bet when you expect to get called. you want it to be called

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

For betting a draw to be a value bet, you must have enough callers to make the bet positive EV. For example, if you think you'll win the hand one out of three times (nut flush draw), and there are eight people in the pot, you should bet for value even though you expect to lose the pot most of the time. You expect to lose one bet two out of three times, but win seven extra bets the third time.

By definition, a semi-bluff is a bet that hopes everyone will fold. Value betting your draw as opposed to semi-bluffing with it depends on how many callers you expect to get.

On the river, you usually bet either in hopes that a better hand will fold, or in hopes that a weaker hand will call. The former is a bluff, the latter is a value bet.

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

Wow. Reading all these replies it seems there is some confusion. I have also struggled with understanding this concept and how to apply it.

I have understood a value bet as a bet on the river that will get a worse hand to call enough to cover the times when a better hand would call and win or raise you.

For example, you have TPTK and have been betting the whole way and have been called the whole way and when the third of a suit comes on the river, will a bet in this situation be a winner enough times to make it worth betting?

I'm sure if I am wrong that someone will clear it up shortly. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

How about:

Any bet with +EV?

For example, if you have a OESD (8 outs = 31.5% success) draw w/ two cards to come, and three people call your bet:
For 100 bets, you win $125 (100*.315*4) and you lose $59.50. Your EV is $66.50/100, or .665.

Here's a hand from Two Dimes:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=376815
pokenum -h th 8h - ad kh -- 9h jd kd
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Kd Jd 9h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Th 8h 331 33.43 659 66.57 0 0.00 0.334
Ad Kh 659 66.57 331 33.43 0 0.00 0.666

Wouldn't raising AdKh on the river be +EV?

I don't see why the term needs to be restricted to certain situations?

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

this is so wrong, i am now dumber for having read it.

Correction: EV calculation
 

This EV calc is wrong.

You only NET $94.50, and your EV is $35/100 or .35.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

The "standard" definition is betting figuring to win most of the time when called. This is different than a "bluff" bet that has little or no chance of winning if called, or a "semi-bluff" bet that has a small but reasonable chance to end up winning.

Realistically this term is usually used in situations that may appear "marginal" to some or most folks: if you've got the nuts on the end you are technically "betting for value" but nobody would say that.

AQ flop Q-9-7--4-4. You've bet all the way and should "bet for value" on the river.

- Louie

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

I've always felt people used the term to denote that the hand has some intrinsic value in the particular game. So, in the example you give, one has top pair, top kicker on the river so a bet "for value" indicates the generic hand (top pair, top kicker) has a value in and of itself, irrespective of the general action on prior rounds.

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

Here is the way i understand it using an example to explain:

Playing 5/10, at the river, the pot is $100 and you're heads up at the river.

Assume if you bet, you expect a call from your opponent. The pot is laying you 11-1 odds.

Next, assume that if this identical hand was played 11 times, you will have the best hand 1 time out of those 11. So,

The 10 times you lose the hand, it costs you $100.
The 1 time you win, you gain $110.
That give you a total EV of +$10.

Hence, a bet on the river in this situation is a "Value Bet"- a bet with
+EV if played an infinite # of times.

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

Quite simply a value bet is a bet when your hand is "likely" good that is it is going to be good more than 50% of the time (in your opinion).

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

Well, it only has intrinsic value for betting on the river if someone calls with a less hand or someone folds a better hand.

But I prefer your definition, where "value betting" is based on the showdown equity of the hand and NOT on other issues such as "free cards" or "semi-bluffing" or strategic reasons such as "setting up a bluff later". Basically "value betting" would be "betting a good hand". I proposed that notion a couple years ago here and got shot down pretty bad, being a "revisionist" etc.

That notion has the pretty big benefit that you can identify most kinds of bets. With the current definition you need a separate category called "protecting your hand" where its probably good but won't get called unless its beat (raise PF with KK flop an A heads up: the tight player isn't going to call unless he has and A, but you should often bet anyway. But that violates the current "value bet" rational).

- Louie

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

A "bluff" has positive EV. Perhaps you mean "positive EV when called".

- Louie

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

"Positive EV when called" is the best definition I've seen in this thread.

Betting for value is not exclusive to made hands, or "best" hands. If Jim has top two pair, and Bob has nut flush draw, and there are 5 more players at the table with crap like bottom pair and backdoor straight draws, then both Jim and Bob can bet "for value". They are making money with every customer they get to call, regardless of the eventual outcome. Both Jim and Bob want callers.

If you want callers, you are probably "betting for value". (I'm trying to think of a case where this statement is false, but I cannot.)

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is so wrong, i am now dumber for having read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I award you zero points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

I have always thought of "value bet" as something you do if you are quite a bit ahead moneywise in your poker session and have a decent hand.

More than likely a hand that is second best, but could just as likely win and since your expectation for this poker session is already on the positive side..so you bet.

Very confusing concept because there are alot or reasons you bet and varying definitions of betting.

If you bet on the river with a "value bet" you are protecting your hand which is a potential winner.

If you bet into a pre-flop raiser on the flop you are betting to see where you are at...which I would also consider a value bet.

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

A "value bet" is a bet or raise you make when (1) you are certain that you will be called and (2) that has a positive expectation.

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

This is not really a nit-pick even if it looks like one.

Lets not confuse "positive EV when called" with "wanting a call": if there are 8 bets in the pot and you figure to be a 2:1 favorite if you bet and get called then your value bet is positive. Never-the-less you prefer NOT to get called since winning 8 bets 100% is better than winning 9 bets 66% of the time.

That's real common: betting for value, even encouraging a call, yet hoping not to get called.

- Louie

Re: \"Value Bet\"?
 

I have had the sense that a value bet is the largest bet that your opponent will call after the river when they are beaten. Assuming you have read the hand perfectly due to the board, bets, position, etc. and know that you are winner, you want to bet an amount that your opponent will call. You want to maximize this amount, but go too high and you get nothing (other than the pot, which is yours anyway). This definition, of course, does not apply to limit games. Maybe this is one application of a "value bet", but it is where I have heard it applied.