can you get away from KK?
 

the $1-2 at UB, I've bought in for $200 and am at $196 or so. A person left so down toe 6 people, which i don't like.
Plus the person to my left just won a huge pot and is at over $400 and sounding kind of loose.

I am on the button with KK, cutoff limps for 2.
I make it 8.
The huge stack makes it $24.

Obviously I don't fold, not asking that.
But he could have a multitude of hands. What do you do?
Make it $60 and fold if he pushes in?

I pushed in. Hoping he'd put me on AK if he had QQ.
Of course he had AA, and i lost all my money. I did have a strange feeling he might.

How do you play it, and can you get away? If you make it 60 even, you are getting close to 2-1 on a call.

Thanks

SD

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

Even AA isn't infallible, and people sometimes make stupid decisions and win anyway.

KK is a good hand to go all-in with. You got beat, but I wouldn't say it was a bad call. I've pushed it all with cowboys a number of times and only gotten beaten once... by rockets of course.

Conversely, just today on PP NL 25 I raised 6$ PF in with my rockets and UTG raised back at me. So I go all in. He calls. Stack sizes about the same. Board lays down and he shows 88.

So what happens, naturally.... spiked his set. I said thanks and if I ever want to go <font color="red"> bankrupt </font> I'll remember that move. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

on the one hand, if you never push with anything but AA then everytime you push people will know what you have and fold.

on the other hand, say your opponent has AA. say you're also not sure that he does and ready to commit your money with KK. in a fundamental theorem of poker sense, how are you going to make your opponent make the biggest mistake possible? he wont' be making a mistake by reraising the rest of his money or calling your allin preflop.

--turnipmonster

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

I have to disagree on point 1. On the internet people just don't see you enough to know that. And how many hands do you push allin for with 100x the BB? I'd say two or three.

And I think his biggest error would be by calling my allin with AK or QQ. I don't see his making a mistake with AA.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

If you are now heads up, you might just call the $24. Is this crazy? If you are ahead, you may gain from the deception, if you are behind, you may be able to get away from it after the flop.

If you are going to reraise, I think it's still too small of a pot to push. You are only going to get called by Aces. I think your idea of reraising to $60 is a potential plan, but if you are called, your decisions after the flop could get tricky.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

Yeah, i think it is not a good plan to call preflop. You are on the button, so it looks like a steal by you.
If he has AQ or AJ, you want him gone, or make him pay. Always seems like an A flops, so i want him to pay big.
If I called, I am going broke here as the flop was small.

If he calls my reraise to $60, i'm pushing in on the flop sinec $120 in there and I have $138 left. So I am risking all my money now just to get another $36 out of him. He is getting odds to flop a set here as well.

Any more and I am pot committed, I think. In a tourney I could get away from it. But getting more than 2-1 with KK especially when button vs SB in a short handed game.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

my point that if your opponent has AA, there is no chance of you getting him to make a mistake preflop. if you reraise, he will raise allin.

think of it in terms of a worst case scenario. obviously you are hoping your opponent doesn't have AA, but let's say for argument's sake that he does, and you are forced to commit your whole stack with KK. with these two facts in mind, what's the best way to play the hand?

in this scenario, the way to outplay your opponent is to call. your opponent *will not* make a mistake preflop, and after the flop he may make a bad fold on a later street, or you may hit your set and take his stack.

by flat calling with KK here, you are giving your opponent more chances to fold, and not letting him do what he wants to do, which is get all in before the flop.

--turnipmonster

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

But that is only in the case he has AA.
How is flatcalling the best play if he has QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, and the multitude of other hands he should be reraising with her against a button raise?

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

If it always seems like an A flops, you might aswell fold preflop

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he calls my reraise to $60, i'm pushing in on the flop sinec $120 in there and I have $138 left. So I am risking all my money now just to get another $36 out of him. He is getting odds to flop a set here as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

This looks like a very good reason to slow down in this hand and be more cautious. The way you played it if you have respect for your opponent you're gonna win $36 or $60 or whatever if he doesn't have aces, and you're going to lose your entire stack when he has aces or hits the flop.

Reraises preflop really aren't too common at $1/$2 NLHE online, they signifiy great strength.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

because if I reraise those hands he'll fold and if I flat call those hands he'll be drawing to 2 outs and probably pay me off? you really do gain a lot in deception by calling.

this may be a game specific issue. in most of the games I play, people will fold anything less than KK to the 2nd raise.

when I used to play the NL on party poker, I would sometimes push with JJ against certain players.
--turnipmonster

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

If you reraise preflop he can get away from QQ JJ TT AK and AQ, if you just call, he'll bet the flop for you and you can get a lot more of his money in.

David Slansky posted a similar hand only in a touranment context, it was a very instructive thread I highly recommend it. Just looked for it but couldn't find it, the thread is called "No Limit Hand 1" I'm pretty sure, starting by Slansky, if you find it please post a link here.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

Isn't JJ, QQ, AK, AQ great strength against a button raise 6 handed?

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

A tournament situation is much different as you can't go back into your pocket and won't risk a 50/50 shot. He could be more willing to risk what he perceives to be a 50/50 shot since he just won a huge pot and is up $200.

I am starting to think I should have raised to $60-70 and if he pushes in, muck it.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

Yeah, maybe to the raise, but when you reraised to $60, I'd drop all of those hands without a second thought.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

That's fine though. I want you to pay to hit your set or an A.
If I call and he hits a set, i'm losing everything.
If not, probably not winning much more than another $30-40.

And I can see you getting away from something like JJ, but QQ many people will play for a lot.

I don't know though. I'm more of a NL tourney player, so I'm not use to slowplaying preflop.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

Flat call and trap him if an ace doesn't come because he will overplay his hand when you show the weakness of flat calling preflop. So what he turns up aces this time, typically that reraise preflop will be a lot less than AA and you will cause him to make huge mistakes postflop because if an ace comes you can get away but when he makes tptk or has queens he will lose it all to your concealed cowboys.

OK
 

Wow.
Well I asked the question, and the overwhelming response has been to flatcall since:
1. If he has AA, you are going broke pretty much anyway.
2. Go for the deception
3. If an A flops, can get away from it.

Fyi, I knew the pushin was a marginal play.
Also, I am more of a tourney player, so really not used to playing long with 100x the BB. At 40 on down, you are getting allin if you can with KK.

So, I think I will try this idea, if in a similar situation, particularly in position.

Thanks

SD

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

SD,

An interesting hand. Let me start off and say, I would've gone broke here, and so would almost anyone else in this forum or at that game.

I find it interesting because a friend of mine folded KK in a live 1-2 PL game just the other day. The action went like this: UTG min-raised, UTG plays fairly straight-forward and likes to call down with strong hands that may or may not be good. A few callers and my pal raises the full pot out of the blind with KK. UTG sprigns to life and reraises pot. Hero calls (stacks were big enough to draw for a set) and check-folds face up on a 8 high flop. Opponent shows the rockets, table oohs and aahs.

Now, notice the difference between these two hands. First off, your hand is online giving you no physical clue to the strength of your opponents hand, I think many people overvalue this, but it is still a factor. Also, the opponent in my friends hand min-raised and then "three-raised" which screams AA or KK.

In your hand, as you stated your raise could be a steal, although the presence of a limper makes it much less likely. So, your opponent is marked with a hand of some strength, but does it have to be AA? Couldn't 88-QQ, or AK, AQ, AJ be played this way? What has your opponent showed when he re-raised preflop before?

How does your opponent play post flop? If he will make a large mistake postflop that he won't make preflop then thats when you should make the move.

Calling and playing the flop might be the best way, but you are letting him draw cheap to hit his set, or the flop might be scary enough that you will fold the best hand. He does have 'reverse position' with the right of first bluff.

On the other hand, raising to $60 and folding to a reraise sounds good. But what if he does move in? You still have Kings, and he could still be a retard who really likes his pair of jacks.

So, at the end of the day, who knows, I'm raising and calling a reraise, I'm losing my stack, but I'm not going to feel bad. How many times has the same situation happened to me when I've had AA and they've had KK AND QQ AND JJ AND AQ AND 46.

As Guy McSucker would say, if all else fails, don't forget to river your King.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

Thanks.

Yeah, I can get away from KK. But really only if he raises first from early position, then I reraise, and he pushes...or a third person involved.

I wasn't saying fold to his reraise (i know you aren't saying that).
I think an argument can be made for either making it 60-75, then fold if he pushes, or calling and playing it.
But just about impossible to have button and sb with AA vs KK (and I for one am not surprised in general when AA vs KK)

Yes, would have been a lot easier live. Maybe that is why I do a lot better playing NL live (well, was doing great online til the last 24 hours!)

I may also be doing better live since playing 25-60x BB.

SD

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

I've been thinking of this situation alot latley. In the past 3 days of nl cash games i've had KK 6 times, 5 of those I was up against AA, no joke. So now I say call and hope an A flops so you can get out.

I do think i agree with the call and get allin if an A doesn't flop, in a cash game this is probably more profitable. although if you think he must have a big pair pushing is prob better, since you may get bluffed or no action with an A flop or K. In a tourney i think best to push to get him to fold AK or AQ, it is always better to not risk any out draw.

Re: similar hand from WSOP
 

Very interesting, I had nearly exactly the same hand in the WSOP this year. Money is slightly deeper than your game (25/50 blinds with 10000 chips, so about 200 BB in play instead of 100).

On the fourth hand of the tournament, I get KK on the button against two MP limpers. I make it 350, and the small blind makes it 2000. Folded back to me. I think for about 2 minutes and decide to call. Flop is J9x with a two flush (if I remember correctly). He goes all-in for the remaining 7850 or so. I think for about 4 minutes (with the ESPN cameras hovering over the table hoping to film the first player eliminated from the tourney!), and fold. He shows me his aces.

Being mostly an online player, I am not usually going to put a lot of trust in my ability to read live NL games. But in this case, there were overwhelming indicators that he had aces. First off, his hands and lips were both trembling. Secondly, and maybe more importantly, I had a short conversation with him pre-tournament and learned that he was from Columbus, OH and got a sense that he was a "thrilled to just be here"-type (I guess that made two of us), making him unlikely to go out on the fourth hand with less than a monster.

I am pretty happy in retrospect with both of these decisions. My logic for the preflop call goes like this: It costs me additional 1650. With best-case implied odds, there is about 10500 to be gained in dead money plus his stack. This nearly justifies the call itself; but there are several factors cutting down those odds. The AKx flop presents a decision whether to proceed, an ace (or a straight or a flush) can hit on the turn or river, and there may be some outside chance that he is able to make a monster laydown. On the other hand though, if he has less than AA I may be able to squeeze some equity out of the pot.

I doubt I would bet the flop if checked to. In fact, I would have to see how it went, but my early inclination is to check it all the way to the river and then maybe make a thin value bet on the end.

In an online game, however, I am definitely going in with this hand, most likely preflop. Way too many people out there who will push JJ and QQ that far).

Re: similar hand from WSOP
 

Congrats on the great laydown and info.
How did the rest of the WSOP go?

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

I have seen more or less that same situation many times and can tell that one must take pocket aces into serious consideration. I would have tried to make it possible for me to get out of the hand, while at a tournament I might have mucked it. It's not hard to get rid of pocket kings as there are only two kings left in the deck and the big replays are often done with the two biggest pairs. The type of oppponent you figured to be against might make it difficult (but sure not impossible) to fold pocket kings. I have folded pocket kings even at limit games vs. a too likely pocket aces, and here you put was it $200 there to protect $8 or so.

Of course, it depends...
 

Just tonight 2 situations came up where i had KK

1. I make my standard 4xbb raise, 1 caller, LP raises pot, i put him all in 2xpot with KK. He pays me off with 99.

2. I limp from EP for change of pace, all fold around to button call, SB 4xraise, i smoothcall so does button. I catch trip K check and they puts me all in so i triple up. They show 88 and AT [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

It all depends on what your opponents are likely to have, and in my experience (Party 25NL and 20-2 sngs), they will raise/call with wacky stuff -- so play KK to get most money in and once in a while tip your hat to AA.

The advice on here is geared for good players playing vs. good players, but I play against bad players -- so you can value bet more.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

You are saying you could fold KK where you raised on the button to a reraise from the SB?
There is no way to put him on AA at that point.
Are you only reraising with AA if you are him?

I agree that pushing in there was not the right play. But it is inconceivable to assume he has AA. I thought it was possible, but he makes the same play with QQ, AK, etc. It was a button raise.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

Cool, we needed another bitter, angry table coach.

Glad you came along.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

I reckon you're still doomed if the flop has no scare cards.

ie. I can't see either player either making a laydown or not betting a huge stack.

Re: OK
 

"Also, I am more of a tourney player, so really not used to playing long with 100x the BB. At 40 on down, you are getting allin if you can with KK."

Try to find that thread I mentioned that Slansky started, Slansky suggests that in a touranemnt situation here, with lower stacks you still just flat call preflop.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I am more of a tourney player, so really not used to playing long with 100x the BB. At 40 on down, you are getting allin if you can with KK.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. one reason many cash players play poorly in tourneys and vice versa, is these situations where you are that short stacked (40x) just never come up, because you can rebuy. I can't remember the last time I've had 40x the BB to play with.

--turnipmonster

Re: OK
 

I dunno, we were all hating on kings and sometimes I like them.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed) converter

UTG ($101.65)
UTG+1 ($101.65)
UTG+2 ($200.25)
MP1 ($156.50)
MP2 ($165.70)
MP3 ($75.60)
CO ($100)
Hero ($213.75)
SB ($70.50)
BB ($78.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $2, MP2 calls $2, MP3 calls $2, CO (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $15</font>, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls $13, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.

Flop: ($39) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $28</font>, MP1 calls $28.

Turn: ($95) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $25</font>, MP1 calls $25.

River: ($145) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $33</font>, MP1 calls $33.

Final Pot: $211
<font color="green">Main Pot: $211, between MP1 and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero ($211).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP1 shows 5s 5h (one pair, fives).
Hero shows Ks Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $211. </font>

Have faith and don't worry too much when it is aces. The calls these people are willing to make that scream aces (like his $13 cold preflop) are the calls that force you to sometimes get broke KK vs AA. It all comes around.

Re: similar hand from WSOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Congrats on the great laydown and info.
How did the rest of the WSOP go?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rest of day one was excellent. Built my remaining 8000 into about 75K with about an hour to go. I had an amazing run of cards, about 12-15 big pocket pairs and favorable situations to exploit them (plenty of nice second best hands out there) plus I was able to win $30K with a flopped set of 6's verses the big stack. Ended up with around 50K in chips day 1, after spending a few on an aggressive semi-bluff against the Indian guy who was at the final table of WPT at Foxwoods.

Next day I had awful cards (cannot remember a situation where I wanted my opponent to call at any point that day), and went out in about 600th place. Got to play with Bobby Bonilla on day two; he was a better guy in person than I thought he'd be and not a horrible player, probably the best celebrity player I've seen.

All in all it was a fun time. The players in general were extremely tight and as a consequence the blind structure was much steeper than I expected (similar to most online tourneys).

Excellent thread
 

Good, well written thread