Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

suited connectors are not profitable unless you play them in the right conditions. these are some of the important factors when considering playing a suited connector:

- you will have the button on all 3 streets
- the game isn't too aggressive
- it's not likely to get raised after you limp
- you are guaranteed a 5-6 way pot
- your opponents play poorly post-flop

if you don't full all 5 requirements, you should seriously consider mucking.

do any of you really play 98s-65s regularly and turn a profit?

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

I couldn't disagree more. 97s is one of my favorite hands. I've also found that varying your play by raising preflop with no-gap suited connectors from MP or even 1-2 gappers like T7s on the button helps take down a lot of pots when the table is moderate to tight. Limp expecting to call a raise at a loose-aggressive table. Muck them only if there's 2 raises in front of you, and even then not necessarily, especially if you have several callers.

In fact just the other night I preflop raised from MP with 65s, nobody called by the SB..flop came AKK, checked to me, I bet, he folded. Not a big pot but it worked out.

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

One time at poker camp.......

I saw Bunky 3 bet with 98s from the button and spank some fish ass......

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

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Limp expecting to call a raise at a loose-aggressive table.

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So you want to play a drawing hand, out of position, against an aggressive opponent, for 2 bets preflop?

That sounds like an awful situation.

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

if you keep raising 97s in MP, you're going to lose all your money

the hand where you raised T7s after a tight limper with presumably loose blinds was terrible. you're remembering the times you win, but you forget that a lot of the time you're raising a limper that dominates your hand. why the hell would anyone want that?

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

I couldn't disagree more. 97s is one of my favorite hands. I've also found that varying your play by raising preflop with no-gap suited connectors from MP or even 1-2 gappers like T7s on the button helps take down a lot of pots when the table is moderate to tight. Limp expecting to call a raise at a loose-aggressive table. Muck them only if there's 2 raises in front of you, and even then not necessarily, especially if you have several callers.

I hope you are not waiting for me to defend this type of play [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

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if you keep raising 97s in MP, you're going to lose all your money

the hand where you raised T7s after a tight limper with presumably loose blinds was terrible. you're remembering the times you win, but you forget that a lot of the time you're raising a limper that dominates your hand. why the hell would anyone want that?

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I don't do it ALL the time. Just if the situation seems right. Often I will go ahead and muck T7s and even 97s. I'm sure you realize it's all situational, and in HE it's post-flop play that really matters. (besides, T7s might be a 55-45 dog against 55, and a significant dog against QQ, and even money against Kxs or Q9, so getting 4-way action on that hand isn't necessarily a losing proposition)

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

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Limp expecting to call a raise at a loose-aggressive table.

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So you want to play a drawing hand, out of position, against an aggressive opponent, for 2 bets preflop?

That sounds like an awful situation.

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Not heads up. But in a mutli-way pot, yes. Especially if medium cards come on the flop and my opponents have me on big cards. Or big cards come and they don't have them.

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

judging from your river check holding 97 on a board of JJ77x after everyone kept checking and calling to you, you don't play well post-flop, so you DEFINITELY shouldn't be making these moves.

-EV is -EV, whether you do it occasionally or all the time. Raising 97s isn't in MP a good move unless you are against the tightest players.

you are overly cocky, you think you know it all, you come here, post a hand you botched terribly, then you start talking about how making these variance moves with medium 1 and 2 gaps is a smart play.

I'm really not trying to be a dick. when I came here I thought I was good. then I realized how crappy I was. hopefully you'll realize this too, because otherwise you're going to lose all your money.

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

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One time at poker camp.......

I saw Bunky 3 bet with 98s from the button and spank some fish ass......

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Notice it was 98s, notice further it was on the button.

Notice thirdly I took control of the hand with position.

Notice fouthly my opponents played HORRIBLY postflop.

Sthief is 100% correct. I am a suited connector fan WITH position. Though i don't always raise )or three bet) in that situation.

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

You are officially invited to any game at any limit that I am playing, just give me a ring.


That advice is some of the worst I have ever heard.

If thats your style, more power to yah. But you will get spanked by Gomez's variance monster often and hard.

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

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judging from your river check holding 97 on a board of JJ77x after everyone kept checking and calling to you, you don't play well post-flop, so you DEFINITELY shouldn't be making these moves.

-EV is -EV, whether you do it occasionally or all the time. Raising 97s isn't in MP a good move unless you are against the tightest players.

you are overly cocky, you think you know it all, you come here, post a hand you botched terribly, then you start talking about how making these variance moves with medium 1 and 2 gaps is a smart play.

I'm really not trying to be a dick. when I came here I thought I was good. then I realized how crappy I was. hopefully you'll realize this too, because otherwise you're going to lose all your money.

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Fair enough. That's why I posted the hand. I am somewhat of a new player and am still learning; and I still have a lot to learn I know.

However, I still think that if you're a 30% favorite against what your opponants are holding but you're only putting 25% of the $$ into the pot preflop, it isn't necessarily a bad play. (or am I making a mistake in thinking that as well?) One other thing to consider - read Baldwin's section in Super/System. He mentions how in the right situation he'd cap with T9s or 98s, in addition to MP raises with suited connectors. It's where I got the idea to try it out.

Not to threadjack, but it seems to me there are at least 2 different schools of thought on HE. The one espoused by S&M relies more strenuously on mathematical precepts, while others I've read proscribe a more "fluid" approach, only relying on mathematical analysis for critical decisions. Am I right?

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

Sthief is 100% correct. I am a suited connector fan WITH position. Though i don't always raise )or three bet) in that situation.

Ohh I agree with Sthief also. just not his statement that they suck. I will play 98s and maybe even 87s from LMP at typical tables.

Re: to sublime
 

I'm glad my play left that lasting of an impression. I'm humbled.

The play I made with 98s is what Bobby B was talking about in S/S. I probably only do that though maybe 1 time in 30 thoughm and it is under the right conditions (like blowing off steam, lol)

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

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suited connectors are not profitable unless you play them in the right conditions. these are some of the important factors when considering playing a suited connector:

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Stheif I think you're like the mike l. of the small stakes forum, alternating seemingly at random between supertight and maniacal.

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- you will have the button on all 3 streets

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Nah, one or two off the button should suffice under many conditions, or maybe in MP in optimal conditions.

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- the game isn't too aggressive

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True 'dat, but if there are a mix of hopeless calling stations amidst the aggros, I think the conditions for suited connectors are okay.

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- it's not likely to get raised after you limp

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An overrated concern. Suited connectors typically have fair share against say 3 limping hands and one raising hand.

http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b...+Kd%0D%0AJc+9c

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- you are guaranteed a 5-6 way pot

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Yes and no ... you're more likely to win with say a pair of 7's in a smaller field. I see this as tied in to positional considerations, but I'll play any suited connector down to 54 or any suited one-gapper down to 75 if I have the Button and there's even *one* limper. I just really like the Button.

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- your opponents play poorly post-flop

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Isn't that a pretty safe assumption?

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if you don't full all 5 requirements, you should seriously consider mucking.

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No you shouldn't. This is a more dynamic situation than you're making it out to be, and suited connectors have more pot equity than you're giving them credit for, even in relatively small fields.

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

maybe I'm just pissed because I've lost so much money from them. in your full-table experience, do you turn a profit with them?

and yeah, I'm a person of extremes. I only played 6-max for a while, now I only play full. I randomly skip between limits. I started that OIC thing last week and then I gave up because I got bored of micro limits. I have strong opinions on things.

I don't like being indifferent. Suited connectors are one of those hands you should be indifferent to. If you love them (like I used to) you'll play them too much and lose money. if you hate them (like me), you'll probably fold them in spots where you could turn a profit from them. playing them too much loses a lot more money than mucking too much. I see a lot of hands where people get in trouble because they play suited connectors in difficult spots.

you're probably right that I'm too tight with them. but too tight is better than too loose with these hands if your judgment isn't that great, and my preflop judgment probably isn't as good as I like to think it is.

Re: Starting the \"suited connectors suck\" campaign........
 

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maybe I'm just pissed because I've lost so much money from them. in your full-table experience, do you turn a profit with them?

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I can't say for sure since I lost my pokertracker database when I switched computers ... other folks are more careful about their record-keeping and I'd be as curious as you are as to what their results have been.

I played suited connectors pretty liberally when I was doing the Pacific 15/30 thing; the games there, especially over the winter, were quite loose and pretty passive - probably not too different from a typical Party 2/4. You can't track hands anyway at that site but I had a hella win rate in that game with a somewhat loose preflop strategy.

I don't play them very often at all in Party 15/30, which is an aggressive, high-card oriented game.

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and yeah, I'm a person of extremes. I only played 6-max for a while, now I only play full. I randomly skip between limits. I started that OIC thing last week and then I gave up because I got bored of micro limits. I have strong opinions on things.

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I once had an athropology professor tell my class that he liked ambiguity. Guess which paper I was writing whilst stoned...

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you're probably right that I'm too tight with them. but too tight is better than too loose with these hands if your judgment isn't that great, and my preflop judgment probably isn't as good as I like to think it is.

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That's a fair point. I'm sure that 90% poker players overrate their own abilities {Nate raises hand}. However, one thing about the suited connectors is that the postflop decisions they bring about are usually relatively straightforward - you have a hand or you don't; you either have the odds to continue with your hand or you don't - something like KTo probably requires better postflop judgement than something like 76s.