Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

I'm reading his article at http://www.philhellmuth.com/hotw.html and I'm starting to seriously question if he could even turn a profit at online tournaments. His play seems incredibly weak like he always assumes his opponent has him beat. Phil also doesn't seem to adjust to the calibre of opponent he is in the pot with.

Also maybe I'm retarded but it seems like he's making fundamental mistakes like smooth calling with Kings in a multi-way raised pot and then folding when rags flop? What the hell is he doing? Or he knows his opponent is bluffing but rather than shut him down he lets him catch an overcard?

The worst is how Phil will say "I put him on pocket Jacks but I folded my Queens anyways, he showed 7's but that's alright, don't want a 7 to come off and break me". What world does he live in? He gets a read that he is a 4-1 favorite to call all-in but he folds for fear he'll be drawn out on? How will he ever win a tournament playing like that?

I'm starting to think Helmuth sucks.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

One thing is for sure...

He is about the whiniest SOB I've ever seen. I especially love the way he is 'entitled' to these pots that he lost and when someone who flops top pair to Phil's overpair and then hits their kicker on the river, Phil's suffered a bad beat.

What the hell is this crap?

Now, near the end, I actually did have tears in my eyes behind my fine mirrored Oakleys, so that no one could see them. Why had all of this BS happened to me? Are you kidding me? Is this even remotely fair? At the break my parents had finally arrived in town to console me, and pump me up.

Mommy and Daddy have to come to town to 'pump him up'?

Good lord. Does this guy really think that with 2500 something entrants that he's going to be at the final table every damn year?

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

Sounds like someone still has self-esteem issues.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm reading his article at http://www.philhellmuth.com/hotw.html and I'm starting to seriously question if he could even turn a profit at online tournaments. His play seems incredibly weak like he always assumes his opponent has him beat. Phil also doesn't seem to adjust to the calibre of opponent he is in the pot with.

Also maybe I'm retarded but it seems like he's making fundamental mistakes like smooth calling with Kings in a multi-way raised pot and then folding when rags flop? What the hell is he doing? Or he knows his opponent is bluffing but rather than shut him down he lets him catch an overcard?

The worst is how Phil will say "I put him on pocket Jacks but I folded my Queens anyways, he showed 7's but that's alright, don't want a 7 to come off and break me". What world does he live in? He gets a read that he is a 4-1 favorite to call all-in but he folds for fear he'll be drawn out on? How will he ever win a tournament playing like that?

I'm starting to think Helmuth sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't play to win anymore, he plays to not lose.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

Yeah, I was pretty surprised reading his account also. Seems to me with something around 10,000 chips midway through day 1, the time to decide to fold KK because, "I can win the event if I fold my hand" is before you've called almost a quarter of your stack and received a ten high flop. Should have looked in to the guy's soul preflop.

Although I really can understand taking risks in certain situations where you think an opponent may bluff all their chips to you, in this situation, with $11,000 in the pot ($15,000 with his call), and the other guy, who he makes for bluffing, with just $8000 left, I don't see how on earth he just calls.

On ESPN a while back, they showed what I think was the most recent U.S. Poker Championship final table, which had Hellmuth, Eric Seidel, John Hennigan and the guy who won it, Toto Leonidas. It got down to Leonidas, Seidel and Hellmuth, and Leonidas basically ran over them with aggressiveness. One hand, Leonidas raised up with AQ, Hellmuth reraised with AK, and Leonidas reraised him big (can't recall amounts or if it was all in or what)...Hellmuth folded, then as Leonidas turned over his cards to show, he pointed and said, "Aces!", cringing when he saw tthe AQ. Anyway, Leonidas had been throwing chips around left and right bluffing, but on this particular hand, Phil had pocket queens. I think Toto had JT. Board was low cards I think, and Toto made some huge bet relative to the pot with nothing. Phil thought about it for a while, saying out loud, "why so much Toto?"...in the end, he decided to call, rather than reraising him. If I recall correctly, a king came off on the turn, Toto bet again, and Phil called again. I think the river hit one of Toto's cards, and he bet huge again....and Phil folded. It's possible I am remembering this incorrectly, but I think I basically have it right. Very similar play to the one above.

"After all, I could have gone out if he'd hit a seven" is a pretty ridiculous statement.

It could be that because of his reputation, he may be more likely to be bluffed at at the main event by players who want to say they bluffed Phil Hellmuth. He still managed to last quite a while even with the hands I'm sure he'd like to have over, which is to his credit. I wonder if he would have shared some of these hands with us had he not folded those big hands face up, or showed them to the camera? Either way, I do give him credit for talking about them. But it does go to show, the "pros" make big mistakes too.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

Once in a while I have a great read on my opponent. When I do I don't like to risk a lot of chips preflop because I know his actions on the flop will tell me what I need to know.

I think the problem is phil has taken this concept way too far. He is so confident in his own reading abilities that he seems to almost never risk his chips before the flop. The causes him to make silly errors because he feels he can make it up somewhere else since he "knows his opponents so well."

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

I remember the first shot I took at the UB 80-160 game was because Phil was sitting in it. Prior to this I had not played anything bigger online than 30-60. I watched Phil play for about an hour and read all the comments that were coming from him like, "How can you play that crap? Call my raise with AT? Are u nuts? This 4k is nothing cause I'm up 50k this month off the 80 (game)". Needless to say I made a quick nice little score off this game (mailnly off of Phil) and subsequently deposited it back with interest in future 80-160 games. To me it was taking a shot but I really thought that Phil was the fishiest guy on the table that night.

Phil is one of the best when he isn't playing against himself. I guess Phil would rather pad his ego than his wallet sometimes.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

oh my god phil is such a little b*tch.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

I sure would hate to count Phil out of the running. He has made too much money. The actions he took in that article were there to keep from being put out of the tourney, not to win or lose the hand. I can understand his not wishing to go all in when he did not have the 'nuts'. I may be wrong, but he sure seems to know what he is talking about when I see him on TV. Of course, this is but my own humble opinion... I could be wrong... or bluffing... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] <font color="red"> </font>

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

I think everyone whines from time to time. But this guy has made an art of it. I might be insanely pissed about some jackass who knocks me out of the tournament with 52o or some such, but, I would at least try to find a nice quiet place to punch the hell out of the nearest inanimate object.

Laying down those Kings made Phil seem like he was just plain playing scared. Not a good image for a "Pro" me thinks.

laceratedsky
http://www.wtfman.com/poker/

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

Yeah... he whines.
Yeah... he makes some very weird plays.
Yeah... he often out-thinks himself into making stupid decisions.
What else?
Oh, and yeah... he is that good.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

With all of the complaining that the "pros" did about the internet players, I wonder if the gap has been closed somewhat between the super-pros and the rest of us. Surely the speed of the internet game and the fact that we do not get distracted by body language and learn to just play the cards has to count for something.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

Wonder if he himself realize how he comes off writing stuff like that.

* For someone who credits himself with great reading skills, why on earth doesnt he have the guts to act upon his reads? What good are they if he will chicken out of a call he thinks he has the best of?

* He takes waaaaaaay too much pride in his folds. By now it seems he would rather fold cleverly than win a hand.

I don't know if he plays this weak as it sounds here, but if he does I think he will be a more rare and rare guest at final tables in the future given there are more and more unknown players in each event, and it will probably grow. And PH seems scared of them and their play.

Yeah, I think he is that good
 

Lots of comments and Phil hating going on in this thread. I'm pretty sure that not one of the people respoding really understands large field tournament play.

I particularly like the one that "he was playing not to lose, instead of wining"

That is EXACTLY how you are supposed to play Day one (and day two with this field) of the WSOP. You can't win it on Day One no matter how big your stack (Laing). All you have to do is stay one step ahead of the blinds and wait for strong hands.

Going for it all on pocket Queens is exactly what the "real" pro's want YOU to do. Laying down hands is the key to tournament success untill the final table. Phil has been playing this way for 15 years and he is the best tournament player there is bar none. He didnt get 9 bracelets being a fish.

Re: Yeah, I think he is that good
 

Do you think it's good play to constantly show his opponents he is folding QQ, JJ etc face up and then continue to folding them?

At this stage I can imagine him having a nightmare in future tournaments simply because everyone knows he is so much in survival mode that he don't have the guts to make calls he figures himself a huge favourite in. Afterall, a 7 might fall.:)

No doubt he is a great player but it seems he is struggling a bit to adjusting to the new face of tournament poker.

No, He Isn\'t ...
 

...and his book sucks out loud. But hey, somebody has to have been the luckiest tournament player in the world.

As his results regress to his own personal mean, we can expect to hear a LOT more whining.

Re: Yeah, I think he is that good
 

I'm right there with you Syntax. Phil's "poker brat" demeanor makes him a target by the not so skilled player. Seasoned pros and regular tourney players are able to look past the personalities and in most cases avoid confrontations with each other.

However, I do think he possibly misplayed the KK he speaks of in the multiway pot.

What are yours or others thoughts on that?

KC

Re: Yeah, I think he is that good
 

I feel quite sure that Paul Phillips would disagree with you. He went out day 1 with an overpair against a bad player who had an 8 outer after the flop. See Paul Phillips Journal http://extempore.livejournal.com/. Paul had a 2-1 edge on this hand to double up. Who wouldn't want to take those odds? Even someone as good as Paul wants to. It's pretty obvious Phil doesn't.

I think this idea of survival is wrong--not early in a big tournament anyway. I watched 20 hours of the WSOP from the rail, and Greg was able to do amazing things because he built up his stake early.

Usually the early leaders are bad, wild, lucky (Day1 and Day2) players so eventually they bomb out. Like the guy who beat Phillips. He was long gone by Day 3 even though he had a large stack.

But someone like Greg, or Phillips, who know what to do with a big stack, have a big edge by getting ahead early.

Re: No, He Isn\'t ...
 

Look, He sucks, his book sucks even worse, but the man IS one of the all time greatest tournament players. He may have some serious leaks in his game right now, and even more leaks in his personality, but the guy can play.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

One of most important things I have learned from Greg on these forums is that you should rarely eschew positive ev situations in tournaments, especially far away from the money. I really hate Phil conisdering his laydowns of pair over pair as good plays (instead of looking at them as bad reads). You only get hands like KK and QQ so often in a tournament and you better capitalize on them when you get them. I am not talking about overplaying them but just playing them right.

My other thought on the matter is the more experience I get the more I realize there is only so much you can outplay an opponent. A significant portion of the time you have to just play solid poker. Of course this is less true for no limit than limit but the "internetization" of poker has made this a bit more true for nl as well.

Re: No, He Isn\'t ...
 

I played a bit with him online and he played poorly. A good friend of mine played with him at Foxwoods and he played bizarrely and badly. His book shows he does not think about poker very well.

Sure, he can get a good idea or make a great read once in a while, and he got very lucky in tournies. That doesn't make him a great tournament player--it just makes him a tournament player who had great results.

player rankings
 

http://www.cardplayer.com/player_of_..._by=poy_points

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

The guy has lost sight of where hes at,he needs to check the ego at the door,stop feeling sorry for himself and realise that tournaments like the WSOP are not going to play the same way they used to due to the very high proportion of online players and newbies.Its no surprise that players like Greg and Chris M. became world champions because they have seen the madness that is on line tourneys,theres a rhythm to on line tourneys and you cant ride roughshot over them like some pros have tried and you also cannot expect text book plays (although it seems Phil saw a few out of his own book).

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Its no surprise that players like Greg and Chris M. became world champions because they have seen the madness that is on line tourneys,theres a rhythm to on line tourneys and you cant ride roughshot over them like some pros have tried

[/ QUOTE ]


not quite sure what this means

Re: Daryn
 

What i was trying to get at is that in my limited poker experience i think on line tournaments and B&amp;M tournaments play very differently.On line in order to get to the point where people play more correctly you have to negotiate the early part of the tournament where its a bit of a crap shoot ie: players going all in pre flop with 77 (referring to phils article) and it seems the WSOP might (I've never been there) be playing a bit like a big stars or party tournament,where skilled on line tournament players can sail through the mine field that is on line style tournament play.

I am in no way trying to take away from the achievments of either Greg or Chris Moneymaker,but it seems that pros like Phil H. cant play "their" A game against an on line type field.I am basing this on the various whingings I read from pros who busted out of the WSOP because they couldnt bluff at pots or were re raised all in by people with worse holdings than their own.

Re: Yeah, I think he is that good
 

So you should play a very passive defensive game in a large-field tournament? Sorry but I think your the one that doesn't understand large-field tournament play.

Re: Yeah, I think he is that good
 

you take your shot early build a big stack so you can take those blows from the guys moving all in with 77 or be done with it early. Still can't believe he folded KK.

Re: Daryn
 

Exactly. The "Pros", by and large, don't have nearly the experience in online tournaments that players like Greg have. And I do believe that the first 2 days of the tournament play much like those. Most of the Pros didn't adjust. But FossilMan also has a ton of "traditional" tournament experience too. And he has formulated his own tournament strategies and not just taken the experts "word" for how to play. Read Glazers piece at http://www.finaltablepoker.com/view_...?article_id=68

It's a fact that Greg has experience against the "traditional" foes like Harrington. Don't get me wrong--Harrington is a GREAT player. But I think Greg knows how to deal with Harrington. Harrington may not be as familiar with Greg's style. In Glazer's article Greg said that he feared Josh Arieh the most. I watched the last 3 days, and I would have feared Josh the most too. Boy can he play. Can't wait to see the hole cards.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

I remember seeing that hand. Phil had QQ other guy had QJo. The turn was a King which made it so the other guy was drawing dead but phil folded his confidently face up.

Re: Daryn
 

You don't think Harrington knows how to deal with a player like Raymer? You got to be kidding me. The guy has come in top 4 in the two largest fields in WSOP history. He won another one. I don't want to knock Greg, but his best tourney showing was third at a Foxwoods event before this.

And you don't think the "pros" have the same tourney experience as an online player? What they can't afford computers? Im willing to bet that every single "pro" out there practice their tourney skills online quite frequently.

Re: Yeah, I think he is that good
 

I do think he misplayed the Kings in that hand. Not when he layed them down, but I think he should have put the raise in before the flop.

I can't tell you exactly what he was thinking when he decided to lay them down, but when there was a $3500 bet and call, I think he made the right move. He may have already been beat with a set or Aces. If he was up against QQ or some other pair and Ah Kh, he only wins that pot 46% of the time, and have to risk ALL his to get there. If you ask me, thats not the type of situation I want be all-in in the WSOP.

He made a read and got off the kings. Too many players can't do either of those things.

Re: Yeah, I think he is that good
 

Yes I agree. I cant see me picking up KK and allowing it to be a multiway pot. The laydown is questionable but he made it questionable on the safe side. And you're right not too many player could do that.

KC

Re: Yeah, I think he is that good
 

Once upon a time, Mike Sexton created something that lasted like one year, called "The Tournament of Champions". I was in Vegas and watched the final table of this event. There was one hand I will never forget. I think it was two or three handed. Louis Asmo raises, David Chiu reraises, and then Asmo goes all-in. Chiu thinks long and hard about it, folds and then flips over his pocket Kings. The crowd gasps in awe. Louis shows his Aces. This fold allowed Chiu to go on and win the tournament.

Champions know how to lay down a huge hand. Its a certainty that many times they are way ahead, but a wrong decision to fold may cost you from obtaining some chips, while a wrong decision to play it can cost you the tournament. Think about it.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

Phil sounds like he has happy feet. He maybe just mentally shot. There is a reason why Fischer can't beat top chess pros anymore, it could be the same reason why Phil can't win anymore..........

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

What the heck are you talking about? He won two friggin WSOP bracelets last year!!!!

Facts speak
 

He did outlast 2200 people despite these plays, and his overall winnings in the WSOP are about $3,600,000. I find it hard to believe that someone will reach that amount without being THAT good.

Re: Daryn
 

They will now. But prior to this by and large they are not use to large field NL tournaments. Why should they be? Until now it would have been a waste of their time. How much could they make per hour anyway at these things?

But since they are tremendous talents there will become expert at these real fast. They won't even have to play much, but just think about it a little, and discuss it among themselves.

But, no, I don't believe they had the experience. Read some of Daniel's comments.

Re: Daryn
 

Ive seen Daniel play money games on PokerStars. And I am not so nieve to believe that he (or any other big name pro) had never invested in a couple $200 buy in tourneys to try and win a cheap seat in the WSOP or the PP Million etc.. These tourneys can be played any night of the week from the comfort of your own couch in front of the TV and youre telling me that its a waste of a pro's time to play a few of these events to win buy-in's to major events and keep their skills sharp. Keep dreaming.

Re: not that good anymore
 

Whoever said tournament poker is about survival is right, however there is no better chance to build up you stack then when u have a situation where your opponent has two outs (other than no outs, but that is far less common).

If anybody ever reraised phil, pushed him out of the pot, and showed him two rags, I am fairly certain he would immediatly go on tilt.

Just a thought.

Re: Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fischer can't beat top chess pros anymore

[/ QUOTE ]

are you kidding?