Game Selection...personal reflection
 

I have just purchased TPOP and am thinking about the following statements and how they are related:

"Poker winners do not deny reality. In fact they make their profits from other people's denial." (pg. 10)

"Choose the right game for you." (pg.9)

One of the things I have noticed in my game is that I often refuse to believe that I am the worst player (or one of them) at the table. I spend my time (and money) trying to chase cards and make moves that ultimately prove the contrary point to the one I am trying to make: that I belong at the table. The sublimation of my ego to my intellect is one of the biggest challanges I face; that is, quiting is hard even when I "know" I should quit. For example, I don't like to admit that my record at 10/20 is pretty spotty compared to my record at 5/10. I continue to work up my bankroll at 5/10 only to squander it at 10/20.

The battle with myself is maybe the most interesting part of this game. Anybody have any thoughts on how to best control these destructive impulses?

Re: Game Selection...personal reflection
 

I think in your case stop limits could serve as a nice crutch and would help.

I'm curious to what the others will say as to an actual solution to the problem.

Re: Game Selection...personal reflection
 

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I'm curious to what the others will say as to an actual solution to the problem.


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Stop playing 10/20/? Or was this one of those trick questions?

Jimbo

Re: Game Selection...personal reflection
 

Your post indicates an open mind, which is not very common. You recognize that your pride interferes with your objectivity. So does mine, and almost everyone's. You seem willing to consider the possibility that you're not ready for 10/20.

I don't know whether you are or not because I don't know how large your sample is. If you have played only a few times at 10/20. spotty results don't mean too much. If you've played many times, they would suggest that your game has to develop more, and that you might be better off to stay at 5/10 until it has developed.

If your record is only spotty, I doubt very much that you are one of the worst players. They don't have spotty records. They lose almost every time.

I would encourage you to have a successful player (10/20 or higher) analyze your game. The best way to do it is to sit behind you while you play. The next best method is to record hands and discuss them with your "coach." A poker discussion group is an excellent source of coaching. So are various forums here such as Mid-limit HE.

If the coach costs you a reasonable fee, it's worth it.

As long as you keep an open mind, you can develop yourself. When you think you have nothing more to learn, or when you deny evidence, you're in big trouble. I do NOT see signs of either in you.

Regards,

Al

Re: Game Selection...personal reflection
 

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I spend my time (and money) trying to chase cards and make moves that ultimately prove the contrary point to the one I am trying to make: that I belong at the table.

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Proposed translation: "I know that my 'A' game that wins at 5/10 is not good enough to beat the awesome players at 10/20. I compensate by playing a tilted form of FPS in the 10/20 game."

Am I right? Is this the truth? Not an easy problem to fix but I'll toss out a few ideas.

1. Stop playing 10/20. If you are truly incapable of doing this then go directly to jail, do not pass Go. Any viable plan starts here.

2. Get a bunch of 10/20 hand histories and examine your opponents' play. Maybe if you see how ridiculous some of it is you will take them off their pedestals. You can't be one of the worst players in 10/20 or you would also lose at 5/10.

3. Make a specific point to find and fix several leaks in your game. You need to go back to 10/20 with something new in your game. The knowledge that you are now a better player will create psychological distance between you and your previous poor results. Of course being a better player won't hurt either.

4. Give 10/20 another try. Bring an adequate bankroll and some patience. Relax and play your normal game. I promise you they cannot see through the backs of your cards. 1BB/hour (or whatever) means you will lose much of the time so prepare for it.

5. Whatever it is you do to review and analyze your play--double it. Get a coach, post hands, look at your hand histories. Aside from all the normal stuff, look for signs of "that's not me"--making plays that you never make. That's a sure indication of emotion-based play and you need to confront it.

Good luck.

Re: Game Selection...personal reflection
 

Hi tommy2,

One of the most difficult things to learn -- and I'm still learning it -- is how to tell when I'm at a bad table (for me). I sometimes don't realize it until I've already taken a hit or two, and in no-limit play, that's an expensive way to do recon.

I use PokerTracker's "Game Time" feature, which allows me to enter the screen names of every player at the table, and if I've played with them before, shows their statistics for the hands in my database. If I see four or five players with green stats (i.e.: they're winners in the sime I've spent with them at the table), it's time to find another table. At best, I'll be a holding station, taking money from the "red stat" (net losing) players but passing it on to the "green stat" players.

But sometimes a table will have five or six players I've never encountered before, and then it's a matter of feeling it out. I have guidelines I look for in choosing a table: 30-39% of players seeing the flop, pots of 15-25xBB, and an average stack size of at least 75xBB. But that is only a vague sense of the table.

Worse, a juicy table can turn bone dry with the change of just one or two players, especially when the newcomers are in the two or three seats to my left. A very strong player sitting to my left can kill my EV, even if the rest of the table is soft, because he'll have position on me. And I'm not always as alert to that as I need to be.

So ... I guess what I'm saying is this, tommy: give yourself time to learn the skill of game selection. It's another skill you need to learn to be successful, every bit as important as your other skills, and maybe more so. But it's a skill you have to learn with time and experience, just like the rest of this game.

Cris

Re: Game Selection...personal reflection
 

[ QUOTE ]
I spend my time (and money) trying to chase cards and make moves that ultimately prove the contrary point to the one I am trying to make: that I belong at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your goal is to prove to yourself or the other players that you belong at the table, you are not going to play to the best of your abilities. The proof of you belonging at a certain table or limit comes after thousands, maybe tens of thousands of hands. Every decision you make in poker should be what you believe is +EV, not what you believe will prove your status as a 10/20 player.

Thanks for the input
 

Thanks to each of you, especially you Al. I am trying to keep an open mind about my play, I listen to players I know talk about their game and it is: "bad beat this, and bad beat that"...not very productive, I have decided. I was really humbled to learn that 90+% of players are long term losers in poker. I really want to be in that 10% (and I am, so far).

Two of you mentioned getting a coach, I would love to do this, but live in Madison, Wisconsin. Is this something that can be done online or on the phone, or is this strictly a live thing?

Game selection was mentioned by ChrisBrown. Chris, I think you are so right. I often know a game is not right for me, too many maniacs makes me a maniac and too many rocks makes me gamble too much. I really need to work and think about this.

Thanks everybody!

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Three of my friends give lessons, and telephone calls are one of their methods. Jim Brier took lots of lessons from Bob Ciaffone only by telephone for a long time before having face to face conversations. Jim and Bob ultimately wrote a fine book, "Mid-limit holdem poker." Bob's email is thecoach@chartermi.net.
Barry Tanenbaum has some clients that he has never met face to face. He has a very successful coaching practice, and he also teaches at Poker School Online. His email is pokerbear@cox.net.
Matt Lessinger has not worked by telephone with clients, but he has given me lots of "lessons" that way. One of his clients has been playing only five months, but has won two of Royal Vegas Poker's "Play the Experts" tournaments. His email is mlessinger@hotmail.com.
David Sklansky occasionally gives lessons, but he is much too advanced for you.
I recommend all three of them. They all know their stuff and how to teach it.
Regards,
Al

Re: Thanks for the input
 

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David Sklansky occasionally gives lessons, but he is much too advanced for you.


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Ouch!!! That will leave a mark.

John Feeney, in his book "Inside the Poker Mind...", mentions that he spoke to Sklansky on several occasions when switching levels, which I think I remember being less than 10/20. He also mentions that one of his biggest regrets is not speaking to him earlier.

Is it the case that for the lower limit players, that there are other coaches and consultants that are more bang for the buck, or just Sklansky would be too far over our heads to get anything out of a conversation with him?

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Yeah Doc. Matt is pretty good. Breaking out the old school AC connections huh? We were going toe to toe in the last expert series game. Had Matt and Louie Krieger both on my left. Bunky suvived, they did not en route to my final table appearence.

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Everything I say here is just an opinion. I have not discussed this issue with David. If I make an error, I apologize in advance.
David has always been very expensive, and he is now making so much money from books and other sources that I doubt that he has any interest in teaching unless the fee would be extremely high. You could not economically justify paying such a fee unless you were playing at least $60-$120, probably higher.
In addition, David is not interested in teaching basic strategy. He would be bored teaching anything that a non expert would want to learn.
If you are a very advanced, high stakes player, you should try to retain David as your coach. For any other level of player, I would recommend Matt, Barry, or Bob.
Regards,
Al

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Matt and I talk about poker very frequently, and I've learned an immense amount from him. I must also say that one of his students, Joopy, has had incredible success. She started playing poker in January 2004. She has won two Royal Vegas Poker Play the Experts titles, and I just got an email tonight that she had won a 3K PL tournament.
That's the best proof I can offer that Matt is one hell of a coach.
Regards,
Al

Re: Game Selection...personal reflection
 

Look at your inner game:

www.primatepoker.com/online_poker_article001.asp

"The inner game includes items such as your beliefs about yourself, your beliefs about poker, your actual motivations for playing, your beliefs about the strength of your own poker play, how you personally value winning and losing at poker, and your beliefs about the morality (“rightness” or “wrongness”) of playing winning or losing poker.



"Lack of clarity in your beliefs and attitudes about poker is a definite obstacle in your efforts to achieve winning results. "

Coaching
 

Thanks again Al, I contacted Matt today. I agree that David would be too advanced for both my stage in poker, as well as too advanced for my bankroll. I don't take that as an insult, I still need to work on my poker fundamentals and need a coach who is willing to help me move from a novice player to an intermediate one.

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Doc,
where are these coaches located? Also you mentioned Brier, but failed to give contact infor for him, or can he be reached through the pokercoach email? I'm in vegas and would love to find a local coach, and i know there has to be somebody reliable here who gives personal coaching.

regards,
bonanz

sorry don't mean to impose on another's thread

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Barry and Matt live in las vegas.

J

Re: Thanks for the input
 

thanks jason,
I'd rather have a coach look me in the eye and tell me i suck rather than hearing it on the phone [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

bonanz

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Bonanz,
By chance I had lunch today with Barry Tanenbaum, and he is the only coach I know personally in Las Vegas (other than David Sklansky). As I said in my column, Barry is the "resident guru" of our poker discussion group. He is an outstanding player and teacher.
Barry's email is pokerbear@cox.net. He is leaving town tomorrow for a few days, but will certainly reply to emails.
Jim Brier has never given lessons (I think), but he has taken them from Bob Ciaffone. Bob is located in Michigan.
Regards,
Al

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Matt moved to the SF Bay area a while ago.
Al

Re: Game Selection...personal reflection
 

Just to let you know,

David Sklansky charges $300/hour. He is the best possible coach, but it's too much for some people.

Matt Lessinger dislikes Mason, and he said some bad words about him.

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Al do you know any coaches in CT near Foxwoods? Thanks.

Re: Thanks for the input
 

Sorry, but I don't know any coaches in that area. Matt doesn't want to do long distance coaching, but Barry and Bob have both helped people by telephone and email. You might see how long distance coaching works for you. But face to face is obviously better.

Why don't you start a thread on a different forum such as Mid Limit or Small Stakes? "I'm looking for a coach." Describe your situation. Either a coach will contact you, or someone will say, "Why don't you contact...."

Regards,

Al