Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

This table had turned tight. I nabbed an obvious position bettor, but was nabbed myself. I think my big mistake was betting the turn. Anyone else?

Anyone think my flop raise was goofy? I liked it since I felt I could pick up the pot enough right then with the given action.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: BigEndian is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, BigEndian checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BigEndian checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BigEndian raises</font>, MP1 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BigEndian bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, BigEndian folds.

- Jim

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

Did you have a read on the MP that suggested he/she might fold to your c/r?

I think a check and fold on the turn was called for with A7o and a MP1 probably holding J9 or possibly JJ.

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

You failed to follow through your plans when you didn't three bet the river. Surely he wasn't calling that.

Of course I am being a bit sarcastic, and I think I see what you were trying to do, but I don't like it. Don't get me wrong, I love the abudulian bank-shot, but at party it seems like people hang on for dear life when they catch any piece of the flop. I'm shocked the two people behind you droped.

-Huh

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

Hi fellow Atlantan, I felt this flop was ragy enough and the action checked through them pretty quickly. My read on them is either a set or a flush by the turn, with the flush being the strong likelyhood. There are't enough players to slowplay a set and they would have bet any pair for the same reason.

- Jim

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

I struggle with this sort of thing sometimes too. Sometimes my read is such that I know or think I know someone is full of it, but, I just don't have the hand to do anything about it. It can be frustrating, but, I make that sort of raise sometimes.

In your example, I think it's harder with a flush board. Another thing is deciding up front whether you are going to follow up or not if the 3rd club comes. Sometimes I don't think it through. If you raise with the 2clubs I think you have to believe he doesn't have clubs, and if that's your plan then you have to bet into him on the turn and call him down. OTOH I often wonder if I have to put someone on specific cards first before making that play or not. Usually I see some crap like J6o when I try that. I don't think it's +EV longterm and it's sort of instant gratification. IE trying to win pots not money. But I suffer the same sort of combativeness.

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You failed to follow through your plans when you didn't three bet the river. Surely he wasn't calling that.

Of course I am being a bit sarcastic, and I think I see what you were trying to do, but I don't like it. Don't get me wrong, I love the abudulian bank-shot, but at party it seems like people hang on for dear life when they catch any piece of the flop. I'm shocked the two people behind you droped.

-Huh


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see the river action, where are you looking? THX

EXAMPLE
 

Here's me doing the same sort of thing. This is the same guy I posted my other hand about which happened later on. I know he's loose-aggressive and I keep trying to catch and punish him. I guess he's got clubs and betting out into a weak flop trying to pick it up, so I push my hand hard on the flop and he 3bets. I call him down only to be find out yeah he had 2 clubs, but, I'm behind the whole way. I eventually got his whole stack but it took me longer than it should have, about 150 hands. Still that's not bad on the BB/100 scale but this was just boneheaded.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 8.50 BB, between SB and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by SB (8.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Ad 4s (two pair, tens and fours).
SB shows 5c Tc (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: SB wins 8.50 BB. </font>

Re: EXAMPLE
 

I see how they're similar, but popping a non-aggresive position bettor is a bit different. With a LAG, you are going to cost yourself a lot of checks if you go head to head.

In my hand, it's pretty much a win on the flop or you go away.

- Jim

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (4 SB)

[/ QUOTE ]


The pot was tiny. The risk versus reward here just doesn't justify trying to win the pot. Let it go. It's a fine play to try if the pot is twice as big, because then it won't have to work all that often to be profitable. But here you're basically making nothing. You ended up coughing up 4 SB for this 5 SB pot, only to lose.

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

The 3-flush could be a good card for you against an opponent who plays poorly. I'd hate checking the turn for table image reasons, unless you know MP1 to be very solid.

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

If I were to do this, I would like to have a hand that justifies semibluffing in case he will call. I guess A-high might do if I´m very sure he has little and I´m sure I can give it up unimproved if the guy between coldcalls (Even more so if a club lands on the turn).
You gave it a shot, the guy between you coldcalled, a club came on the turn, I think you can check-fold now, unless he is very loose, but in that case, I wouldn´t raise the flop.
This might change your table image a little, I wouldn´t worry about that. Try and adjust, maybe you will get more action now if anyone was observant.

Someone said the pot was tiny and it is, but against the right opponents, I think its worth it.

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

Think of it this way, I expect to pick up the pot on the flop way more than 30% of the time. If you can learn to identify position bets, this is an easy play.

My bet on the turn was a gaf due to the cold-caller and the flush card. But it's arguably not really a mistake since it only has to work about 20% of the time and the flush card could be just as scary for them as it is for me.

- Jim

Re: EXAMPLE
 

[ QUOTE ]
I see how they're similar, but popping a non-aggresive position bettor is a bit different. With a LAG, you are going to cost yourself a lot of checks if you go head to head.

In my hand, it's pretty much a win on the flop or you go away.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

True, I agree. And I think I should have gone away probably. For some 'reason' I called him down [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Think of it this way, I expect to pick up the pot on the flop way more than 30% of the time. If you can learn to identify position bets, this is an easy play.

My bet on the turn was a gaf due to the cold-caller and the flush card. But it's arguably not really a mistake since it only has to work about 20% of the time and the flush card could be just as scary for them as it is for me.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting.

Inspite of the "these players never fold" comments around here ... I hardly ever see anyone fold to the raise right there, that's why I said if you think he's not on clubs I like firing again at it. Usually if they fold, they fold on the second round.

Are you saying that a "position better" is maybe 'somewhat aware' and that "position betting" is a coincidental indicator that someone will "let go" to the raise ~30% of the time? Coz my "typical" opponents don't do that, but, they will call and then fold to the next bet.

I think I'm seeing that in your comment but I could be making it up [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I try to 'always be a threat to check-raise' so I can pick up free cards, etc. and occasionally I throw in the bluff-check-raise to keep 'em on their toes. How often do you try this?

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

I've found that CRing a position bettor will make them let it go on the flop often enough. CRing represents a huge amount of strength. Sure, there are people who will call down regardless. You don't try this one those players. A typical player who has been CRed before can lay this down.

I only do this is if the situation warrants it.

To be sure, there's plenty of money to be made by letting this pot go and waiting until I have a hand. But I think this is a money-making scenario and letting it go would be the equivalent of letting my top pair top kicker go just because I have 8 callers.

- Jim

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

[ QUOTE ]
...But I think this is a money-making scenario...

[/ QUOTE ]

You also mention that you win this situation about 30% of the time.

Is this information that you can, or have already obtained from poker tracker? Just wondering because I find it hard to believe that it is a +EV play.

Re: Whoops! Caught basting a position bettor.
 

I stopped using poker-tracker a while go. But it's my experience that I take this pot down more than 30% of the time on the flop.

- Jim