who takes the free card?
 

B&M 6/12, full table. I've been seated for three orbits. The game is loose, but not exactly a goldmine.

When this hand was dealt, I had not yet put in a chip voluntarily. (I caught some flak for folding for one chip in the SB. But then but the BB raised his aces, bet the whole way, won a really big pot with the complainer losing the most.)

I'm in the CO with 44. Two limpers to me. I call, planning to check-n-fold unless I flop a set (or if the flop is ragged and everyone checks to me). The button folds. The SB completes. The BB raises. We all call.

The BB has raised out of position once while I have been on the table. He had a face pair, but called to the end with an ace on board.

The 2nd limper used to be a prop. Hs is tricky, plays very badly before the flop, but has seen seven billion multiway flops and has a lot of experience playing trash hands against tight young guys who raise a lot.

The flop is 246 with two clubs. The raiser bets, 1st limper folds, 2nd limper raises, I three-bet, SB folds, raiser calls, 2nd limper caps, we call.

At this point it's obvious that the preflop raiser has a pair between JJ and AA but isn't happy with his hand + position combo. He thinks the flop hit at least one of us hard, doesn't know how, and isn't folding.

I don't like the cap bet by the 2nd limper. He isn't afraid of the preflop raiser, so it doesn't look like a medium overpair. Nut flush draw? Flush draw/pair combo draw? Trips? Made straight? Two pair?

The turn is the jack of clubs, completing the flush. They both check to me.

Your play.

Re: who takes the free card?
 

You don't take a free card when you have a made monster. Bet that puppy and call a raise.

SpaceAce

Re: who takes the free card?
 

Looks like the 2nd limper has 77 or 88 and the PFR could have TT or woke up to your flop raise and is laying off his overpair. NO WAY you should take a card here as you are the favorite. Bet.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: who takes the free card?
 

I think you have to bet as you probably have the best hand. If you didn't, you would have heard about it when the turn hit (or if you get c/r'd). If he is on the nut flush draw (or made it), he has as many outs to hit it as you do to fill up.

Re: who takes the free card?
 

Monster?

Middle set with a flush on the board?

Not that he shouldnt bet it....Just not because its a monster

JW

Re: who takes the free card?
 

I bet, call a raise, check call the river unless another club hits.

who goes back for more?
 

I agree with Josie "The Outlaw" Wales. A set shouldn't be played like the nuts with a flush on board.

I checked. I sometimes bet in that spot, but the guy who capped the flop loves to checkraise and knows I'm really aggressive.

The river paired the jack on board. PFR checked, 2nd limper bet. I raised, PFR folded, 2nd limper 3-bet.

Your play.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

You are not taking a free card, you are giving a free card. That's not good. If the 4th suited card comes on the river you will be kicking yourself. Not to mention the other free cards that can hurt you here.

Bet and call a raise on the turn.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Josie "The Outlaw" Wales. A set shouldn't be played like the nuts with a flush on board.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you need the nuts to bet the turn?

Re: who goes back for more?
 

I would have bet out the turn like I said. If raised I call. The jack hits I C/R and call a 3 bet.

If I checked the turn I would bet/raise any on the river. At 4 bets I would call.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

re-reraise. If he plays back at you I think you have to call, and are probably looking at 66 or JJ or (hoepfully), 22 or the nut flush.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

This is hold'em, not Cincinnatti, right? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I would not have given the free card on the turn, but it looks like it gained you an extra bet on the river, so it worked out okay. However, if a blank hits on the river, you lose one big bet by checking the turn. If another flush card gets there (that doesn't pair the board), you will hate it when the pocket 7's w/ the 7 of clubs takes down a monster pot.
I would have bet the turn, called a raise, and called any non-club non-pair river.
After checking the turn, I would have raised any non-club river, and raised and reraised any paired river. I would stop at six bets.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Josie "The Outlaw" Wales. A set shouldn't be played like the nuts with a flush on board.


[/ QUOTE ]

Betting out when checked to isn't playing a hand like the nuts. Bet out, you have a great hand. You can't give anyone credit for a flush until they raise, and even then I'd just call.

If someone else raised the turn, and if hero didn't fill up on the river, what's the move here? I'd lean to check-call.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

Do you need the nuts to bet the turn?

No, but I usually don't bet unless I think I'm winning or have a reasonable chance of stealing the pot.

If the 4th suited card comes on the river you will be kicking yourself.

No, I'll be folding.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

After checking the turn, I would have raised any non-club river, and raised and reraised any paired river.

When he bet the river after checking the turn, I gave him fair chance of holding a flush (and having missed a checkraise on the turn), a tiny chance of holding a straight (and having been scared on the turn), and a very good chance of having a flopped set that turned into a full house on the river.

I called his river reraise, and he stood up and tabled 66 for a higher boat. I mucked without a word. Someone asked that my hand be shown down, and it was.

In retrospect, raising may have been a bad play. I could have gotten an overcall from the preflop raiser had I flat called the river, and I didn't want face a third bet from the guy in the middle.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

Sometimes you make a good hand and get beat by a better one. I don't think you did anything that horrible here, other than running into a bigger set [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: who takes the free card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Monster?

Middle set with a flush on the board?

Not that he shouldnt bet it....Just not because its a monster

JW

[/ QUOTE ]

Three-flush or no three-flush, middle set is still a monster.

A small full house is a monster, the nut flush is a monster, top, middle and bottom set are all monsters. None of them are invincible but that doesn't change the fact that they are monster hands that need to be bet (unless there is a staggeringly obvious beat on the board).

SpaceAce

Re: who goes back for more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Josie "The Outlaw" Wales. A set shouldn't be played like the nuts with a flush on board.

I checked. I sometimes bet in that spot, but the guy who capped the flop loves to checkraise and knows I'm really aggressive.

The river paired the jack on board. PFR checked, 2nd limper bet. I raised, PFR folded, 2nd limper 3-bet.

Your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're free to agree with whoever you please but if you don't bet here you are giving money away. It's that simple.

SpaceAce

Re: who goes back for more?
 

The only way not betting the turn is right is if you are absolutely sure you are up against a higher set.

There are mistakes that can cost you a bet or two and there are mistakes that can cost you an entire pot. A mistake that costs a bet or two is bad, a mistake that costs you a entire pot is a catastrophe. Not betting the the turn is that type of mistake.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

if you don't bet (the turn) you are giving money away. It's that simple.

My main opponent in the hand is loose preflop, but he's not an idiot. What do you think he capped the flop with?

I have played against him quite a bit, and I was 99% sure it's 66, 22, or the nut flush draw.

On the turn, I was only beating one of those hands (not including the one that was mathematically more likely to be out against me). So I checked.

It's not that I didn't have an excuse to bet. I was drawing to beat a flush (if someone had one), I had position, etc.

I just don't think a bet is mandatory in this spot.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

I just don't think a bet is mandatory in this spot.

Very, very little in life is mandatory. However, you really should bet the turn. I can think of a lot of hands that you're ahead of.

No one likes to be checkraised in this situation, but you have a very strong hand and it should be bet.

El Sapo

Re: who goes back for more?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your skirt looks a bit loose, have you cut back on the carbs?

my play? call. if it was online with a 4 bet cap, I'd cap, live with no cap, call.

Re: who goes back for more?
 

I can think of a lot of hands that you're ahead of.

Can you put either of my opponents on a hand that I'm not ahead of?

my skirt?!?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your skirt looks a bit loose, have you cut back on the carbs?


[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who knows my game would scoff at the idea that I am too passive in general.

The key piece of information in this hand was conveyed by the capstone bet on the flop.

My main opponent raised on the flop when next to act against someone who raised out of the blinds and bet a board with no big cards. This means he doesn't mind going heads-up with a high pocket pair.

And then he capped the flop betting after I (who play fairly tight preflop and do not three-bet multiway flops with trash) raised behind him.

What's the logical conclusion?