Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

There is a thread on RGP about a book called "Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem Poker". I found the website to be interesting and so I bought the e-book. So far, I've only read the first few chapters and I like it.

The main emphasis (in the early chapters) is that the relationship between the stack size relative to the blinds is very important. According to the book, you should play differently if the average stack at the table is very deep relative to the blinds versus if the average stack sizes at the table are very shallow relative to the blinds. Old commonsense knowledge except that the book has some very cool names (IMO) to describe these different "strategic and tactical terrains".

When the stacks are deep relative to the blinds, it's called a "Guerilla terrain". You can play a lot of hands if you can come in cheap because the implied odds are very good.

When the stacks are shallow relative to the blinds, it's called "kamikaze terrain". You basically move in or fold because a raise can get you pot committed.

Everything in between is called "siege terrain".

I haven't read the rest of the book yet but I'll give you guys a review once I get to them. Stuff to do with "strategems", "tells", "enemy stereotypes".

From what I've read so far, I recommend the book. But I've got to read the rest of it first before I can give it a rating. I was very intrigued that the author, Kaizen Nguyen, claims to be a neurolinguistics expert. This is a science that is known for making people better readers of body language.

In summary. I recommend "kick Ass No-limit Holdem Poker".....so far.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

To those of you who have sent me some private messages requesting where to find this book. Simply follow the link below.

www.kickassnolimitholdempoker.com

If the link does not work, just type it in. Its pretty straightforward.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

After reading some of the excerps it seems like an interesting read. I would be curious to know how you rate the book, especially compared to some of the other nl books currently out there.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

If a perfect no-limit holdem book were a 10 and an absolutely worthless no-limit holdem book were a 0, I would rank Super/System a 9, Ciaffone's and Reuben's book a 9.5 and T.J. Cloutier's book a 2.

I would rank Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem Poker a 9. It is superior to TJ Cloutier's book, just as good as Super/System, and literally as good as the one written by Ciaffone and Reuben.

Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem Poker is really the only pure no-limit holdem book though. The others are at best 30% about no-limit holdem. Ciaffone, for instance, has chapters on London lowball, 7-card stud, regular low-ball. No limit holdem gets very little treatment. And Super/System is really a general poker book, not a no-limit holdem book. Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem Poker is really the only no-limit holdem book out there.

I am very excited about Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem Poker. The last time I was this excited about a poker book was when I first read Theory of Poker by David Sklansky years ago.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

It might be a great book, but 30 bucks for a 40 page book? sounds kinda steep.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

I agree it's way too much to charge for a book, especially since I'll have to read it on a computer screen. But this line absolutely kills me:

[ QUOTE ]
"Don't be an over-analytical academic dick head who spends more time back there analyzing things inside his head instead of having his attention out there outside his head observing his opponents' behaviors and actions."

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a feeling this will go over like a grenade around these parts, but I think his point has merit.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

[ QUOTE ]
It might be a great book, but 30 bucks for a 40 page book? sounds kinda steep.


[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, it's a $400 book with a $29 sticker price (remember, the average entry fee for a typical 300 to 1000 buy-in no-limit holdem tournament is worth approximately this much - sometimes more). There's so much advanced stuff in Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem Poker I had to pause to think long and deep after every chapter. I couldn't read two chapters successively without pausing because there is so much to think about in each chapter. In fact, on some occassions I had to pause for as much as 25 minutes while trying to analyze what I had just read from a single paragraph! It took me close to 12 hours to read this 40 page book even though I'm a speed reader (I can normally finish an entire 200 page book in one and a half hours while hanging out at Borders or Barnes and Noble). I spent a lot of time pausing and thinking while reading this possibly seminal book. And laughing too! It's extremely politically incorrect and funny.

The "Guerilla Terrain" chapter alone is worth a hundred bucks in that it provides a very deep explanation why the ultra-aggressive styles used by guys like Gus Hansen, Devilfish Ulliot, Phil Ivey and the late Stu Ungar can work with great effectiveness. Think "implied odds". No, it doesn't mention these players. But it provides the rational that justifies their maniacal styles.

In the chapter that lists 25 very advanced "moves", there is a section that deals with something called "tactical underbetting". It's a very scary technique to be up against. It makes you virtually impossible to read.

Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem Poker is worth much more than its sticker price. A lot more.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

So Jedi, are you financially interested in this book selling?
It surely seem so.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

[ QUOTE ]
So Jedi, are you financially interested in this book selling?
It surely seem so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. His posts sound like the rough draft of a bad infomercial script.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

OK, well your infomercial got me to bite since I'm always looking for a decent NL book.

I'm not sure how much I really learned that I didn't already know, but this line almost made the book worth it on its own:

[ QUOTE ]
With the rapid increase in women’s participation in NLH tournaments and live games, being aware of what nipple hardening means for a particular female player could be a profit opportunity worth milking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

[ QUOTE ]
So Jedi, are you financially interested in this book selling?
It surely seem so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. I have nothing to gain from this book selling.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

I visited the website and read a few excerpts. I must say that i liked it quite a bit. But $29 for 40 pages? I think i'll wait for B.Ciaffone's new NL holdem book due this summer. It's probably gonna be cheaper and have more pages. And i assume at least as good. For now i'll stick with his previous book Pot limit & No limit poker. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was very intrigued that the author, Kaizen Nguyen, claims to be a neurolinguistics expert. This is a science that is known for making people better readers of body language

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, neuro-linguistic programming, or NLP for short, is much more than a science about body language. It's mostly about influencing people to do what you want. The ad is dripping with NLP techniques ("can you visualize buying this book and how great it will be etc."). Which doesn't mean the book is necessarily worthless, but it makes me highly suspicious.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Maybe Mason will read it and let us know if it is worth buying.
With the shortage of NL books, it would be great to have something to read, but all the pushy comments and the high price makes me suspicious as well, so I'll wait until I hear some more about this "great" new book.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Well for all of you guys that think that $30 is too much for a PDF file, I have a feeling you may be in luck if you check back on the KANLH site tomorrow.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, neuro-linguistic programming, or NLP for short, is much more than a science about body language. It's mostly about influencing people to do what you want. The ad is dripping with NLP techniques ("can you visualize buying this book and how great it will be etc."). Which doesn't mean the book is necessarily worthless, but it makes me highly suspicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tim:

I have studied NLP and I noticed some NLP in the book. The notion that (paraphrase) "All nolimit holdem decisions exist inside mental states. There is no such thing as a no-limit decision that does not exist inside mental states. mental states encompass all no-limit decisions " comes straight out of nlp. So does "In no-limit, your opponents cannot not communicate". The "tilt induction" technique that the author credits Pavlov with is called "anchoring" in nlp. The eye movement tells and the voice tonality tells are also nlp. But the strategy sections do not have any nlp. The nlp stuff are found mostly in the sections about tells and enemy stereotypes, and also in the tilt section. In the last part of the book I noticed some use of hypnotic language but since I'm not advanced in that area I cannot really scrutinize it that much.

About a month ago, I made a post in the Psychology Forum that provided some links to sites that explain nlp. If you do a search, perhaps you can find it. I linked at least 4 nlp sites in that post.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

I'll buy a copy of yours for $5. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] jk

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

I went to the Kick Ass HE site and now wonder if maybe this is why you're so impressed with this book's content. The first bit I went and looked at was the underbetting section on the freebie page. It sounded uncannily familiar when I read it:


Firstly (my bold)...

From a Ray Zee post on underbetting from 3 years ago (actually the entire post; I capitalised and put in the punctuation - from a Word doc I saved it as):

"Since it's one of my tactics, I won't go into everything I could. Sorry, but that's the rub.
One reason is that, by betting small into larger pots many times you get to win with nothing at all, with little to lose. Simple formula. It works until they start raising you; so the next step is to be betting small with hands that can stand raises as well. Also soon, they start calling you because they see you can call raises so they can't blow you off the pot with nothing. Since they are now calling you a lot, you can bet an awful lot of weak hands into them that win a lot when called, and hands that you would have to fold if you checked and they bet. All this starts to require pretty good play so you know when to fold to the people that have good hands and call those that are running you off. Also knowing which ones to bet at so you can get called, where if you bet more they wouldn't call at all.
The main money you make comes from winning lots of medium sized pots that you would certainly lose if you checked, or if you bet a lot and got called you would have the worst of it as well. Also because they get afraid to raise you, you bet your draws into them, where if you check they may bet too much. So you get to draw cheaply as well.
So there are lots of ways to make betting small into bigger pots at no limit pay. For most people though it still makes sense for them to bet nearer to the size of the pot because they will get into too much trouble when players take off cheap cards against them. That's one of the major downfalls of betting too little and it can come back to haunt you quickly. The player that controls the betting at the table always seems to make the betting work for him. That's a plus of course."



And this is the section from Kick Ass NL HE:

"The Tactical Underbetting Stratagems is really just one "move", a bet. But it is a very powerful bet because it can achieve so many things, and project to your enemy so many images and intentions, over time and at any given moment. It’s used mainly on…"

It starts when you constantly make small bluff bets into big pots. What can happen here is that you can win many big pots with nothing and do so with relatively small risk. This will work until your opponents find out what you are up to. Then they're going to start raising you. To counter this, you start underbetting with hands that are strong enough to call a raise as well. When this happens, they'll stop raising you because now they know they can't push you off the pot with nothing. As a result, they'll just start calling you. Since they now have become predictable "calling stations", you can begin to bet a lot of average hands (in addition to above average hands) that can win a lot when they call. You can also bet a lot with hands that you would have to fold if you checked and they bet.

Notice that there's a lot of judgement required in order for you to be able to operationalize the very psychological process that I have described so far. Specifically, you have to have enough card sense to know when you can fold to the players that truly have good hands and call those who are trying to push you off with nothing. You also have to have a "feel" for knowing when and against whom to underbet so you can get called in a situation where if you had bet more, they wouldn’t have called you.

The majority of the pots that you will be winning using the underbet stratagem will come form mid-sized pots that you are certain to lose if you just checked. The same ones where if you bet big and got called would be giving you a bad price.

A very important function of the underbet is that it can work as a…"

It is a fact that in NLH, the player who controls the betting will tend to make the betting work for him. The underbet will get you the best of all worlds. You can risk less and win a lot more. It will also make you very deceptive and hard to read which will make the opponent commit forced and unforced errors/mistakes in his reads and in his counter plays against you…"

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Wow! Maybe, this underbetting thing is very common knowledge afterall. I've played with a guy named O'Neil Longson. I've also played with Devilfish Ulliot. And a guy named "Sahid" in small tournaments. And I've seen Gus Hansen on TV. They all do this sort of thing all the time. They'd bet small and bet small, and win a lot of pots. Then someone gets somehow annoyed and starts raising them to counter their play, and they fold. The thing is sometimes O'Neil will have a big hand, make a reraise, and the other person gives him action. O'Neil did this to me in a multi-table satellite and broke me. Sometimes he'd get lucky and flop something big. Breaking someone with a 34 offsuit in the process. I saw him do this to a guy who had KK and he drew out on him. You left out a huge chunk out of the Kick Ass excerpt though. I've heard two guys, one named George Huber the other called "Popeye", talk about this underbetting tactic too.

Ray Zee should write a no-limit holdem book! It'd be a shame if he didn't.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Wow, this makes me feel bad about paying $30 for this. IThink there's any way I can get my money back?

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Jedi, I think you are the author of this so-called book. But as it shows, you have just been stealing posts from 2+2.

Can't you go to jail because of that? [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

You left out a huge chunk out of the Kick Ass excerpt though.


I'm pretty sure I'd included all of the underbetting section that was included on the freebie page - tho maybe not in the ebook (I didn't feel like paying the $30 to get the whole thing). I went back to check but the freebie page is being updated just now. Never matter; just the part quoted was what peaked my interest, being very close to Ray's post in use of words, not just the content.

G

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Hi Graham:

Thanks for pointing this out. We see this stuff on the Internet and in other books all the time.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Someone points out that the excerpt is lifted almost verbatim from a post by Ray Zee and all you can say is, "there is more than that on the sample page"????? They hardly even changed any of the words to cover up the fact that they stole that entire passage.

I really think you must have some financial or other stake in this product because my reaction was very different. I don't see how anyone could buy this product knowing they stole the material from elsewhere, changed barely a word or two and then put it up for sale as their own work.

e-book not available right now 7:06pm est (NM)
 

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

I'll play Devil's advocate here. First, there's much more than just a "word or two" difference between the two passages. And I don't think underbetting the pot is a revolutionary enough concept to accuse someone of "stealing" it. Even though the description of it and reasons for it are very similar to the other posting, so what? If I published a poker book where I advocated check-raising, and then gave a number of reasons for it, I'm sure you could find other published works that advocated check-raising, and for very similar reasons. Does that mean I stole someone else's work?

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Well for all of you guys that think that $30 is too much for a PDF file, I have a feeling you may be in luck if you check back on the KANLH site tomorrow.

I'm still trying to figure out the meaning of this enigmatic comment. Help me out here Nottom.

Having just started flirting with No Limit I was hoping he'd be giving it away. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Hi Tim:

What I tell people in these spots is to reference the original work where the ideas came from. I haven't read what's on this site, but I'll assume that what he did is technically legal since you can't copyright an idea. However, if the excerpt is clearly from something that Ray Zee posted here, the site author would probably discover that his product will be even better received by proper referencing.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Okay, I'm going to stop playing Devil's advocate, because just now when I went back and re-read the two passages carefully, now I see what you guys are saying (I'm a little slow sometimes). Even though more than just a word or two is changed, the order of the ideas presented and thinking process and even sentence structure is strikingly similar. Too similar to be just coincidence. I stand corrected.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

If anyone wants this for free, let me know (disclaimer: I merely want you to let me know so I can TALK with you about umm, basketball [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]). I'd hate to see this POS plaigerizing scum bag making more money.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Sure, i'd be interested. I already own everything 2+2 has out anyways, so it's not like I'm taking $$$$ from S, M, Or Z

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

As the author of this book, naturally I've been following the discussion of it in this forum. I was very shocked to read about the similarity which Graham pointed out between a passage in my book and a posting by Ray Zee that he says took place three years ago. When I compared the two passages, I could certainly see the similarity myself. I have no recollection of ever reading Ray Zee's posting. However, it is possible that I may have read it years ago. And that a subconscious memory of it may have influenced my choice of words.

My book is based entirely on my own experience, observations, and understanding of the game of poker. However, after discovering the similarity between my description of tactical underbetting strategy and Zee's, I removed my book from Download Press in order to revise it so as to give Ray Zee credit for describing this strategy first.

Again, I want to firmly state that there was no conscious or deliberate copying involved.

I want to thank Graham for calling attention to the similarity of these passages.

I agree with those who feel that deliberate copying is wrong, and am grateful that this forum has such strong defenders of intellectual property rights. Just one thing, guys - I'm one of you!

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

You might want to hold your press!

Just so as I haven't stirred up too much confusion. Ray Zee isn't really the one to quote as the originator of underbetting (...to tell the truth, two thirds of the NL players on Party Poker have come up with their strange version of it - all on their own [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] ). It was just the wording in KANLHE was far too similar to Ray's old post to seem like coincidence.

For completeness, here's the thread, Ray Zee's underbetting at no-limit, started by Tommy Angelo. Both Ray and Carl McElvey discuss others using the strategy previously. It's more like one of those uncreditable credits.

Man, I must have been at these forums too long (or for too long each day as well). I can remember threads from 3 years ago and have hundreds of Word files of collated best threads!! I remember Tommy Angelo starting here and posting prolifically...saddo me.. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]! Just think what kind of state the Zee's and Louie Landales of the world are in by now... heh!!..

G

Compilation
 

So how about throwing together a compilation of the goodies you've collected? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Compilation
 

How much ya willing ta pay [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]


The stuff's all there still! The archives here; anyone can trawl through it. What I used to do - before the forums got way too big - was regularly go through the thread listings (once threads were "dead", ie no more postings in it) and read through the ones that interested me. If I thought a thread had good stuff worth keeping for further review, I'd copy the whole thing into Word, tidy it up and chop out the irrelevant non-poker type posts that we all love to put up. Correcting and adjusting the grammar of some posts would take a while (if you want it all nice and correct), as would keeping the "thread" of the thread, if you see what I mean (ie transferring the arrangement and order of posts from threaded to linear).

It'd easily be a full time job now to go through all the archives here and collate, say, all the best Stud/8 threads like that, and etc etc for the other poker games. Though you would have absolutely fantastic resources for your game!! Like I said; it's still all there for everyone. I still refer to teh stuff I have regularly and have learnt a lot from repeated reading. This thread has sparked me to start doig that again, now I'm leaving the job I have and will actually have some time....hmmmmn, heh...wonder if Mason wants to employ someone to do the best of 2+2...? heh. 20K/mo ok, Mason [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]?

btw, that thread had one of may favourite Tommyisms: "At big bet poker especially, game selection is only everything."

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

A lot of people that PM'ed didn't give me their email address; anyone that did should have received an email from me by now.

Re: Compilation
 

[ QUOTE ]
wonder if Mason wants to employ someone to do the best of 2+2...? heh. 20K/mo ok, Mason ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Graham,

You're not the only one thinking along these lines.... Check out this post:

FAQ Ideas

If you can't get Mason to pay, maybe you should get together w/ bisonbison. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

Graham,

This is nothing new or unique. Many people have come up with some variation of this strategy on their own. It is a logical outcome of thinking about the game. It is very common knowledge and many people know the general outline. It is effective in not only NL but also PL and can also be used in short-handed games that can become especially vicious and aggressive. In fact many older road gamblers (primarily Texans) have probably used variations of this tactic for years. Many of these players are 'unknown' but still around and making a living at poker. I have played against some of these guys. They are wily, tricky bastards and you have to watch them like a hawk, least they steal your stack of chips or bills. Beyond the above, I have nothing more to add. So don’t ask. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

-Zeno

PS. Underbetting and other 'advanced' topics are a frequently discussed in the Pot and No-limit forum, which of late has exploded. 2-3 years ago,as you probably know, it was a sort of wasteland. Even just six-months ago it was easy to keep up with. Not anymore.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

I finally got around to reading this and found it to be mediocre.

Re: Kick Ass No-Limit Holdem
 

I was wrong. ignore me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]