Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Hi all.

I'm trying my 1st online tourney whit rebuys on Stars.

Starting chips:
10$ = T1500
Rebuys:
10$ = T1500 (must be at T1500 or less)
Add on:
10$ = T2000 (must have T20,000 or less)


Q: Do you auto rebuy after 1st hand to jump to T3000??

Any other advise is welcome too

Thx


-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

don't auto rebuy

Lori

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

I'm currently playing in the $3 rebuy game and had a similar curiousity. With as recklessly as people play in a cheap rebuy game, I prefer to get my extra 1500 the free way - wait for a good hand and double off one of the maniacs who's already rebought two or three times.

That said, I'm curious about when one should take the add-on. At the break, I had ~5800, and as the add-on stage was about done, the average was around 4600. I chose not to take the add-on, since I was already above average in chips. (also because I'm a micro-limit hobbiest with a BR of about $85.)

Still, my personal funding issue aside, what are people's thoughts about taking the add-on in a low-cost event like this?

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Disagree, I found it best to start with 3000

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

That was quick [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Thx Lori.

Now when you got time I'd like to now why it's a better strategie. I don't know much about rebuys.


-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

That said, I'm curious about when one should take the add-on. At the break, I had ~5800, and as the add-on stage was about done, the average was around 4600. I

The cost of the event makes no difference, it is the number of chips and liklihood that it helps you that makes the difference.

In your position there, I think you are close to the borderline either way, it would probably come down to whether there were many large stacks on my table before I made my final decision in that instance.

If I feel that I can get all my chips in and double up, even after the add-on then I'll take it, otherwise I won't bother.

Lori

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

WOW, lotsa action... One guy already rebuyed 5 times...

He all lost it to same plr on my right who now as T7000!!!!

Edit: he just double up is T3000 trought his nemesis so there now co-leader at T5900 and T4900... Twice TT vs AK matchup.


-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Ahh, that makes sense, Lori. And since I was top stack at my table, I probably made the right call. Nice.

As for the crazy action on Happy's table - that was exactly my point [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

AK on button.
 

BLind 10/20.

UTG min raise to T40, CO reraise to T120. U got AKo on button, All three have around starting chip of T1500. What do you do?


-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Interesting that William disagrees, although he's a monster with a big stack, and I'm probably better short stacked.

In the long run, you should be able to do okay without the rebuy, each rebuy is an extra tourney you could have played.

Therefore the extra rebuy implies you have to win twice as much as you would if you didn't rebuy.
This is tough.

Taking the extreme case, if you were allowed 100 rebuys and nobody else had one in a 10 player tourney, you would actually need to win more than first prize to get your money back.

Clearly this is extreme, and there are some merits in having it early on, but personally I find that having to do twice as well is just too much to overcome.

If you lose your chips, it is usually worth having a rebuy, although with online play offering games every hour, this might not be as clear cut as it was in the days when I played live and would have to make my wages at one tourney per day.

Lori

Re: AK on button.
 

UTG min raise to T40, CO reraise to T120. U got AKo on button, All three have around starting chip of T1500. What do you do?

At the risk of sounding sarcsastic towards William, and none is meant as I respect his views immensely, I now go all in because this is why I don't want to pay $6 per hand.

Lori

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Actually at Stars, because you get 2000 chips at for the add-on (in stead of 1500 buy-in), it is allways wise to take it. It is only in the case you get the same amount as in the buy-in that you can speculate if it is better to add-on or not. the question is if you are a better player than average or not.

Re: AK on button.
 

lol

I know I should have... but i choked... just called, missed and folded.

Anyway, Another AKo play aggressively on a rag flop and a KK milking (Betted 1/3 of is stack on all street, he called me down whit 77 [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]) got me to T2500, I'm in buisness for the moment.


-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: AK on button.
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG min raise to T40, CO reraise to T120. U got AKo on button, All three have around starting chip of T1500. What do you do?

At the risk of sounding sarcsastic towards William, and none is meant as I respect his views immensely, I now go all in because this is why I don't want to pay $6 per hand.

Lori


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the all-in, and i am happy i made the rebuy, now, when my hand holds, i have at least twice as much as Lori.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

True, the add-on is 2k instead of 1500, but at that point I have 6k in chips already. My understanding of things is that because the chips are then worth less than the chips I started with, I'd effectively be paying the same amount for a third as many chips as at the start...

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Surely, again, it is a question of Tourney EV.

The extra money you need to earn from the value of the top up has to be more than the extra money you would earn from paying for 2000 chips.

If you feel the extra 2k will get you more money in this tourney than entering a $2.25 (3/4 value) tourney would, then you should take the add on,

If however you feel that giving up a $2.25 freeroll tourney would not be worth it for 2000 chips in your position then you shouldn't.

Clearly William is correct in that spending $3 for a $2.25 tourney is bad, but there will come a point where the extra chips are as good as meaningless and the fact that you could win this tourney AND the next tourney for the same cost becomes the important factor.

Lori

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Greg Raymer (fossilman) wrote about add-ons some weeks ago. i don't know how to create a link to his post, but I have copyied it below, he clearly explains the why's and how's.
As far as the rebuys, I certainly would prefer joining an ongoing tournament than starting in a new one.

Greg's post:
Here's my method.

If the add-on gives you more chips per dollar, always take it (simple enough, and I doubt we'll see any controversy on this statement).

If the add-on is the same price per chip as the original buyins and rebuys, take it if you're an above average player, and skip it if you're below average.

If you see Chris Ferguson with a T1000 stack, and the average value of every chip in the tournament is $1/T1, you would probably say that Chris's expectation in that event is greater than $1000. As such, each chip in his stack is worth MORE than $1/T1, maybe significantly more.

On the other hand, if some newbie is sitting next to Chris with the same stack, you'd have to say his expectation in that tournament is a LOT less than $1000, so his chips are worth less than $1/T1.

If there is an addon available, $1000 for T1000, Chris will spend $1000 to get chips worth something more than $1000 in his stack. The newbie will spend $1000 to get chips worth LESS than $1000 for his stack.

Solely considering today's monetary EV, Chris should addon, and the newbie should not.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

But the newbie should take it if it's 1500 chips for $1000?

Edit: But then, I suppose we're approaching the question of "Should the newbie be playing in the first place?"

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting that William disagrees, although he's a monster with a big stack, and I'm probably better short stacked.
Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

To my defence, let me put it this way: if you're good with a big stack, you have good chances to make the money. If you are good with a small stack, it's allways a lot of work and way to often no money. One more reason why I rather rebuy.

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Yes, I think so.

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

I like Greg's way of explaining thing. It's like he talk to a child, everything in a simple, complet exemple. lol [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Thx for that William.

BTW: If you want to post a link, just go to the target page and right clic anywhere, then clic proprieties. Copy the URL. Now creat a new post and use the "URL" button in the "Instant UBB Code" menu. 1st, it is going to ask you for the URL of the target page. Just paste what u copyed earlyer. the it ask you the name you want to give to the like. So for your post above you could have type "Link to Greg's post".


-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

T3800, average T4375

Re: DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

I think the conclusion of this conversation is yes

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Yes, Greg is a great poster. I try to read everything he writes. In my opinion he is the best teacher at 2+2. We should be greatfull he spends so much time giving his opinion.

Tx HJP for the explanation about the link. I have wondered for a long time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

take care

Re: DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

I toke the add-on.

403 entrant, 568 rebuys, 271 add-ons.
Prize pool: 12,420$

or 30,82$ per player.

I put in 20$, entry plus add-on.


-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

The funny part about this thread, it's that i am playing at the same rebuy tournament, and because I was writting, I forgot to add-on myself, lol

Re: DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

What's your Stars screen name William? Mine is same as here.

-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's your Stars screen name William? Mine is same as here.

-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm MobyDick at Stars. hope we meet at the final table [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

The trouble with Greg's reasoning, and again, I echo the sentiments that he is a great poster, is that tourney chips do not have a dollar value.

This is shown clearly by the net result of the winner, all of the chips, only 40% of the money.

It is for this reason, that if you have a very large stack, in my opinion, you are losing EV by adding on.

I agree that getting 2000 chips instead of 1500 raises the size of the stack required, but i still believe that if you have the largest stack on the table, there is very little point in adding as you are losing value on the double through.

As a rule of thumb, I am willing, although by no means convinced, to defer to William and Greg, however I'd love to see some more input on where my arguments break down, as if I am wrong, it is a serious leak.

Again to use the 10 player example.

I'll say that entry is 1500 chips and add-on is 2000.
Prizes are 50-30-20. All players are equal skill level.

We will say there are no rebuys, that's a seperate argument [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

At the start of this tourney, I have a 10% chance of each paying position, so my Average return is 10 units.(My stake back)

Now unfortunately, I don't know the equation for working out finishing positions other than first, so I'm going to make some estimates.

If I finish the non-addon-period with half the chips, I am going to win this thing say 50% of the time, come 2nd and 3rd maybe 15% each and mess it up around 20%
This gives me an estimated return of $32.5.

Remembering that simply playing another tourney with my $10 has an estimated return of $10, adding on is not likely to take my estimated return to $42.5, so the best way to spend my $10 in this format is to play another tourney.

Just some food for thought.

Lori

Re: DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

That's like living in the best of worlds, where everybody is equal and everybody does the same. But if 75% of the players add-on and you don't, they will be allowed to put pressure on your little stack and then you better hope those aces are around the corner quite often(and that you get any action, but I guess that there will allways be suckers out there to give rocks action). I am not the type that puts everything into numbers and % (not because I can't, I'm an engeneer and comfortable with numbers) it's just that there is more than that to poker and you can not predict how people are going to react. anyway it's just my opinion, and as I do very well at tournaments, I think I'll stick to it for a while. I know that at limit poker you can count on a certain amount per hour, but I don't think that's the case at NL or tournaments, too much depends on the people you play with.

Re: DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

it's just that there is more than that to poker and you can not predict how people are going to react

Strangely enough, in my own little way, that's what I was trying to say too [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

At least we agree on the fundamentals.

Lori

Re: DO I TAKE THE ADD-ON NOW?????
 

That's the most important then, as all the roads go to Rome....or in this case, the final table... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

i would auto-rebuy ASAP. if you're a good player you will certainly earn a profit on your rebuy dollars.

the discounted price for the add-on means i would auto-add-on as well. i'd like to see a site that makes the add-on a bad deal compared to the rebuy, because the bad players will add-on anyway.

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

Great thread. I can see both Lori's and William's points here and they have been both well spoken. I tend to fall in the middle. I don't take the auto rebuy but have no problem rebuying if I lose more than 20% of my original stack. I also tend to add on if my chips are just a little above average or below. I also don't add on if the add on wont take me at least close to average. If I am that short stacked it is -EV for me to throw another buy in toward it. The added EV of being a larger stack after the rebuy period is important to me based on my strengths ( and weaknesses ) as a player. I don't want to be scrambling through the middle limits of a tourney looking to double up with just a premium hand. The extra $ spent is an ivestment in my ability to steal at any opportunity.

Re: Need quick advise about re-buys.
 

I too played in this tourney and was actually at the table with William briefly. I can understand both Lori and Williams points. I dont auto rebuy at the beginning mainly because I want to see how my table plays. If they play super loose/agressive, I will try and get all my $ in with a premium hand preferably multiway in hopes of winning a hugh pot where I then tighten up considerably. If I lose, I rebuy and try this again. If my table seems rather tight, and not many people auto rebuy, I will rebuy and try to use my stack to pressure them out. I guess I put more emphises on table conditions in the 1st hour of a rebuy event. Ive seen some wild and crazy tables and also some tight and weak tables and think you need to adapt accordingly. Sometimes I get switched from table to table several times. Is there a way to know how long you may be at a particular table?

Also, They allow add-ons if your stack is less than 20K I think. Assuming you are a better player than average, do you add-on with a below average stack? What if average is T5000 and you have T 10000, addon? What about T19000? what about T2500?