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A5o value raise?

This is a hand a friend of mine played in a rediculously good 10-20 game. I thought it would fit into this week's theme of value betting.

UTG, 2 MPP's, and an incredibly strong player on the button (ie. me) limp to my friend in the SB who holds A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. He completes, the big blind checks.

The flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Checked around.

The turn is the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. My friend bets and is called by an aggressive player in middle position.

The river is the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. My friend bets, the aggressive player raises.

Anyone agree that this is a good spot for a value three-bet?

-Diplomat

Re: A5o value raise?

hi diplomat
the problem with the reraise is that if the aggressive is bluffing, he will fold. and it looks like he's bluffing here. also, there is no hand outside of A6s and something like KQ, that he can have. he will ahve these type holdings an equal number of times.

also notice that if you reraise to make him more predictable in future hands, well....if he has A6, he will only become more aggressive in the future. so, unless you can determine with greater clarity whether he has A6 or KQ, calling is best. why? because whatever you do here, you don't want to be analytical. just simply call.

Re: A5o value raise?

No. Is this a trick question?

Re: A5o value raise?

Hi E,

why would I not want him to become more aggressive in the future?

I think there are several hands he could be raising the river with here, outside of KQ and A6s. He could have had a pair and a flushdraw. He could have had two lower pair, such as 56. He could have any queen with a flushdraw. I think the real question is whether or not he will only 4-bet with a stronger hand, and whether or not he will call with a weaker hand.

-Diplomat

New poker term - Oppoadvice

What you get from Elysium when he responds to your post, the exact opposite of what is correct. Also see poor play, lack of judgement, 'fish'.

PokerPrince

Re: A5o value raise?

Of course it's not a trick question. I'm being quite serious. I think there are several hands that an aggressive player might raise the river with that are behind the small blind's hand. Keep in mind that an aggressive player would probably bet the flop with top pair, two pair, a set, might have bet the flop with a flush, and most certianly would have raised the turn with two pair or better. What do you reasonably put the aggressive player on that you cannot beat? And what can you reasonably put them on if they 4-bet?

-Diplomat

Re: A5o value raise?

hi diplomat
oh, the KQ or A6 thing.....well, diplomat there are so many possibilities with every hand read that i find it easier to find the two hands that have all of the qualities of the other possibilities. notice two hand selection exclude AA but include Q9. that's the thinking there diplomat. and if he turns over Q9, it's equal to KQ on my A6 to KQ scale here.

if he turns over a small set, that's your A6.

think fast, play better.

i'm reading what you find to be question worthy......oh for crying out loud diplomat. does a bear sit on green moss in the forest? for crying out loud.

as for the first question, whether you want him to be aggressive or not. that question has merit.

i make a distinction between being aggressive and being lively. uncontrolled aggression is not good for many players. yes, if you are very good against aggressive players post flop, you love them. the problem is that many players are not able to get the aggressive heads up, and run into a third opponent who thinks he knows what he's doing, but really doesn't. and the opponents who interfere with your ability to get the aggressive heads up can wipe out your bank-roll even though you are statistically extrapolating positive expectation. remember diplomat, a statistically extrapolated positive expectation is meaningless if your bank-roll is wiped out.

are you ready to bet into the aggressive and call his raise on the river with K high only? that's statistical positive expectation. but with the over-caller in there, you'd get extrapolated in a heartbeat, positive expectation or not. and i know you diplomat. you'd fold. the J high would take it down.

you like lively, not aggressive. you keep these aggressives lively by either raising early, and giving more credence to their holdings on the expensive rounds, or you simply check-call when you have the best of it. you don't make him more aggressive unless your reraises to get him heads up are getting you heads up. if your image is solid both pre-flop and POST-FLOP!!, and you can stomach betting into or raising this opponent with K hi for value, then by all means throw some fuel onto the fire. notice that i mention that you must be feared post-flop.

often, there is more to getting an aggressive heads up than simply reraising him with the best starters. to knock out those behind you, they must not like being in the hand with you because of how the entire hand pinches. the influence you exert at the table should result in everyone feeling a pinch, including yourself. but like the ballerina who does borderline contortion manuevers with a smile, you too must smile as the pinch you set off takes effect. when you smile at the table after setting off a chain reaction pinch by check-raising an opponent who will reraise, etc., as you smile, your opponents feel the pinch tweezing tighter and tighter. yes, it's tweezing you too, but you're smiling. well, whether you win or lose that hand, your opponents don't want to be in another like it. and if you are tweezing with goodly torque, then you should be able to get your aggressive opponent heads up. but notice that it's your playing style, not your starters that give you this heads up ability. and diplomat, K high is all you need, and good tweeze of course.

so you have to ask yourself, 'do i have tweeze?'. well do you diplomat?

Re: A5o value raise?

[ QUOTE ]
What do you reasonably put the aggressive player on that you cannot beat?

[/ QUOTE ]
65, 66, 87 (with a singleton heart), or a flopped nut flush. He may have missed a check raise attempt on the flop, and now doesn't want to face the field with a raise on the turn that they likely won't call. A lot of overaggressive players turn passive when they have a monster, which just boggles my mind. What's the point of all that aggression if they won't go for the big payoff when they actually have something? Anyway, everyone should know I'm a big fan of value bets, but a river reraise here looks a lot more like a kamikaze resteal attempt than a value bet to me. Not that I don't disapprove of the occassional kamikaze bet (and this might be a good place for it if you know your man), but let's call a spade a spade, shall we?

Re: A5o value raise?

Hey Coilean,

It's a minor point but he had aces up, which beats 56. I really wondered if there was room for three-betting and folding to a 4-bet. Shrug.

-Diplomat

Re: A5o value raise?

"Anyone agree that this is a good spot for a value three-bet?"

no. the aggressive player probably flopped a flush. or is bluff raising. time to just call.

Re: A5o value raise?

[ QUOTE ]

often, there is more to getting an aggressive heads up than simply reraising him with the best starters. to knock out those behind you, they must not like being in the hand with you because of how the entire hand pinches. the influence you exert at the table should result in everyone feeling a pinch, including yourself. but like the ballerina who does borderline contortion manuevers with a smile, you too must smile as the pinch you set off takes effect. when you smile at the table after setting off a chain reaction pinch by check-raising an opponent who will reraise, etc., as you smile, your opponents feel the pinch tweezing tighter and tighter. yes, it's tweezing you too, but you're smiling. well, whether you win or lose that hand, your opponents don't want to be in another like it. and if you are tweezing with goodly torque, then you should be able to get your aggressive opponent heads up. but notice that it's your playing style, not your starters that give you this heads up ability. and diplomat, K high is all you need, and good tweeze of course.

so you have to ask yourself, 'do i have tweeze?'. well do you diplomat?

[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO! Elysium I love you [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: A5o value raise?

[ QUOTE ]
It's a minor point but he had aces up, which beats 56.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not a minor point at all, lol. Somehow I got the hand screwed up in my head so that I only thought he had a pair of aces with no stick. Well, that explains why I'm the only one who thought it was a kamikaze resteal reraise. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Anyway, I think the river reraise is a bit anemic, although maybe made a little better since you really shouldn't have to call a 4-bet. I would probably go with my gut feeling at the table on this one, although from the desk I feel more inclined to just call.

Re: A5o value raise?

heck i thought u should check call.

Re: A5o value raise?

not with top/bottom. Top/top MAYBE. I bet/call a raise on the river.

Will this guy raise BTF with any ace? Than you may have a three bet. Can he four bet you with a worse hand?

I just check-call cause I'm a pussy