\"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

I'm sorry, but when I hear this comment it just makes my blood boil. I'm sick and tired of hearing "conservatives" (or whatever the term imbeciles use for themselves for these days) tell "liberals" (the term they use for anyone who doesn't fall lockstep behind the leadership of our Bozo in Chief) to "leave the country" if they don't like it."

This is an absurdity that is almost uniquely American. I have been to Europe many times, and I don't recall ever hearing a Frenchman tell another Frenchman to leave France if he doesn't like a particular policy of the French government. I seriously doubt a Japanese person would ever be told to leave Japan if they didn't like the policies of the Japanese government.

The funny thing is these chumps think of themselves as "real Americans", a term they use to separate themselves from the "foreigners", "college professors" or "welfare mothers", people who either "don't live in the real world" or are "a waste of my tax dollars". I have yet to find out what a "real American is", but I assume these folks think it is directly proportional to how many "Don't mess with the US" bumper stickers they put on their cars.

Normal people and "conservatives" alike need to realize that open dicourse is essential to democracy. If someone is criticizing the government and its policies, chances are that they would like to somehow IMPROVE what the nation is doing, not because they want to see its demise or destruction.

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

the proper response , and theh one i alwayhs use,

is

'ok ok. youre right. lets build the death camps. can we kill more than jews this time? i hate <insert race here> too.'

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Normal people and "conservatives" alike need to realize that open dicourse is essential to democracy."

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement .... nah forget it. I for one would prefer it if you made stuff like this rhyme at least. Maybe a limmerick would work:


I was confronted by a right winger

And I decided to linger

The right winger did harass

Then called me an ass

It felt like a painful stinger


Happy holidays [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img].

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

"I have yet to find out what a "Real American is,"...



"Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass.
It's the American way."

Toby Keith...Real American

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

This is an absurdity that is almost uniquely American.

While I hate the "love it or leave" mentality, this statement is ludicrous. Hyper-nationalism exists everywhere. You mentioned France. There is a huge right-wing nationalist movement in France, but they don't want people to leave who disagree with policy, they want people to leave who aren't ethnically French.

Nationalist movements are rampant in Europe, where the recent influx of immigrants have changed the social nature of the various countries. As for Japan, there may not exist in this world a culture more xenophobic and resistant to outsiders.

Hate to break it to you, but there are a$$holes all over the world.

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is an absurdity that is almost uniquely American.

While I hate the "love it or leave" mentality, this statement is ludicrous. Hyper-nationalism exists everywhere. You mentioned France. There is a huge right-wing nationalist movement in France, but they don't want people to leave who disagree with policy, they want people to leave who aren't ethnically French.

Nationalist movements are rampant in Europe, where the recent influx of immigrants have changed the social nature of the various countries. As for Japan, there may not exist in this world a culture more xenophobic and resistant to outsiders.

Hate to break it to you, but there are a$$holes all over the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with you that xenophobia is rampant worldwide, all the examples you gave dealt with immigration. I am talking ideology. People who espouse the "if you don't like it, you can leave" mantra don't point it just at newly arrived ethnic minorities, they point at "liberals", "activists", and "lefties", whether there families have been in america for 1 year or 400 years.

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

True, but that more reflects the the US is a nation based on a governmental concept as opposed to an ethnicity.

In other words, since the US is a nation of immigrants, our shared national identity is more one of a governmental concept, rather than an ethnic one. The people are accusing others of not being true to what they define as our core being.

You also have to understand that there is a much wider spectrum of political debate in europe than here in the US. Even from my perspective, the Democrats and Republicans look more like different wings of the same political party than two distinct entities.


Also, in WWII and WWI, dissent was treated much more harshly than now. In WWI, people who protested the war were deported, and in WWII, they were regularly jailed.

Waaaa, waaah, waaaaaah....
 

.....stop crying, I'm warming you a bottle as I write this. If you spend so much time in france and like it, why don't you stay there. You could tell all the french america-haters you're with them - and other than getting spit on from time to time, you'd probably like it there a lot better. Waaaaaa, waaaaaa

Re: Waaaa, waaah, waaaaaah....
 

[ QUOTE ]
.....stop crying, I'm warming you a bottle as I write this. If you spend so much time in france and like it, why don't you stay there. You could tell all the french america-haters you're with them - and other than getting spit on from time to time, you'd probably like it there a lot better. Waaaaaa, waaaaaa

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm not interested in living in France. I was thinking I could ship your ass there so that you might be able to get a different perspective on things. You can get schooled on different political views, find out why they feel the way they do. Who knows? You might actually come back less ignorant.

Actually that sounds like a great idea. Why not just ship Wogga, Limbaugh, and Hannity over to France (or any other foreign country for that matter) and let them see different countries, different political and social systems, different aspects of life in general. Who knows, they might actually come back less ignorant.

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

Brad,

As usual, you are either thinking three steps ahead of me, or three steps behind me. I just can't figure out which.

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
True, but that more reflects the the US is a nation based on a governmental concept as opposed to an ethnicity.

In other words, since the US is a nation of immigrants, our shared national identity is more one of a governmental concept, rather than an ethnic one. The people are accusing others of not being true to what they define as our core being.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with the concept behind the US being a governmental one. I think it is more along the lines of thinking that it is a great meritocracy- in other words, those who work hard and are willing to sublimate completely into Americana will achieve "the American dream", so to speak. If you are perceived as unwilling to work hard for your piece of the pie, or not willing to sublimate to the extent that certain folks want you to, you are viewed as "un-American".

I obviously don't have a problem with people working hard or trying to fit in with American culture. But the hypersensitivity to anyone who even APPEARS to not fall into line with the mainstream political thinking of the times (look no further than Dr. Wogga's posts if you need proof of what I am saying) is something that is difficult to find in too many other cultures worldwide, whether they be homogenous or heterogenous.

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

"You also have to understand that there is a much wider spectrum of political debate in europe than here in the US. Even from my perspective, the Democrats and Republicans look more like different wings of the same political party than two distinct entities."

Quite right, and it seems the Europeans are on average a lot slower to learn the lessons of history than are the Americans. For instance, many in European countries still believe in Communism (naturally, primarily in those countries which never experienced it;-) I mean come on how willfully stupid can these present-day European Communists be. And I do say willfully because I think it takes a special effort to believe in such things today.

Hmm I think I got it....
 

A real American is a musician named Keith. Here goes:

For the 2000 (2000)
Black elvis (black elvis)
We get raw with this (hand me my guitar)
Tour bus packed (tour bus packed)

Black elvis, recordin in the 48-track studio
Madison square garden soundcheck, to speak direct
Fans in the upper level, backstage passes
Wearin diamonds around my glasses, leather coat
Thirty thousand from wilson, countin the mill’s
I’m talkin to andre harrell with a chaffeur drivin me around
In the green rolls royce, parked parallel, on fifth avenue
Steppin in bloomingdale’s, waitin for celine dion to get her nails done
Tour dates start tommorrow, mci send the cash through wells fargo
Black elvis, 28 g’s a night
Tour bus with the motley crue, who gon’ stop who?
Rock star don’t need no tattoo
Guitar out of the sharp, fender bass with the stratocaster
With prodigy, rage against the machine, flyin over the atlantic ocean
With the potion

Chorus: kool keith

Black elvis, rock star, walkin down broadway
What y’all thinkin about?
Black elvis, rock star, walkin down broadway
Chillin in the project hallway

(repeat 1.5x)

[kool keith]
Tour bus, painted neon green with black wheels
We do big wheels, count big head franklin bills
Movin up that’s when I’m black elvis at the civic center
Promoter book venues that are too small, ignore the call
Seventy thousand jam packed arenas
With rock fans wearin backpacks
Merchandise sell nice gold shirts with red lights
Sponsored by dial soap and a heineken
The biggest rock star gon’ rhyme again
Roadie cases for eight months, samsonite suitcases
Rappers comin home with no money on the red eye with dead eyes
Stadium tickets, watch scalpers get wicked
Pull up in my limo ejecting your demo (your demo)
Stretch lamborghinis with four doors, with four floors
Followin right behind yours, basic continental
Get out your rental before I get mental
(yeah baby)

Kool Keith...really (mentally disturbed) American

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

I disagree with the concept behind the US being a governmental one. I think it is more along the lines of thinking that it is a great meritocracy

Well, a free country is a meritocracy to a certain extent. But that wasn't my point. I meant defined as a nation by governmental concept as opposed to defined as a nation by ethnicity.

those who work hard and are willing to sublimate completely into Americana will achieve "the American dream", so to speak.

I disgree completely. The US seems to me to be a place where you can "do your own thing" and succeed. I'm not sure I know what "sublimate completely into Americana" means.

Regardless, this country is a pretty damn heterogenous place. Besides, there's little difference in you saying "bozo-in-chief" and your adversary saying "if you don't like it, leave." You're both exercising your right to free speech. What you say offends him, what he says offends you. There is no right to not be offended by other people's opinions.

I Rather be shipped.....
 

.....to bonus whores.com. Brad and i could have fun there, doing manly hetero things to those sluts

The big Con
 

When a dozen threads ago Utah had disputed that conservatives lie about liberals in America, the first big lie that actually came into my mind was the perennial and blatant conservative lie about liberals being less patriotic than conservatives.

I was about to start a thread in order to demonstrate to dear Utah the inherent problem in that basic conservative position (a.k.a. a lie) but I was too lazy to type up anything more than chicken hawk at the time.

--Cyrus

PS : Those physicals from Dubya's stint in the "American military" came back yet? Just askin'.

This just in, Qaddaffy Caves to avoid..
 

....taking a Red, White, & Blue Boot up his Ass
from a "Real" American....President Bush.

God Bless America!!!

Irony
 

Actually, you make an ironic point.

If it had not been for many great American "conservatives," who live in the world as IT IS, rather than the way they'd LIKE IT TO BE, we might live in a country where you were NOT, indeed, welcome to leave.

Go figure.

To put it in pop culture terms: "You WANT me on that wall. You NEED me on that wall. And while my existence might seem grotesque to you, I save lives. So grab a weapon and man a post. Otherwise, I'd rather you just said thank you, and went on your way."

Or should we simply dismantle the military, turn a blind eye to the realities of the world and human nature, stick out heads in the sand, and just, uh, "pray?"

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

Very well-said, Kurn.

When defining everything as "good" or "bad," the left-of-center crowd seems to demonize everything to the right of themselves, and objectivity ("good") seems to get lost in the vitriol ("bad").

I'm sure "bozo-in-chief" seems like an erudite and reasonable and objective and sophisticated and rational and, uh, "good" way to approach the situation to some folks.

To me, it is a great bullsh*t detector.

Re: Irony...
 

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]..love it or leave it!!!

that's the correct phrase...lol..

power to the people..

gl [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: The big Con
 

Good to see that you are still chewing on that crayon.....

I would love to tangle with you now as I do enjoy your wit. But alas, no time for the next couple of days.

Of course, I could not hold back a few comments towards you as you provide such a target rich environment:

1) You still need to go to dictionary.com or some equivalent and look up the word lie. Grand generalizations about conservative ideas are simply not lies. So far, you have provided only 2 examples of potential lies: 1) Aircraft carrier - a minor lie that I agreed with you and in fact had mentioned before you even brought it up and 2) Bush Speech about Uranium - while it might be a lie, and a whopper at that, it is still very much in dispute and you provided none of the backup I requested to prove your point.

the first big lie that actually came into my mind was the perennial and blatant conservative lie about liberals being less patriotic than conservatives

This is clearly an opinion. Please tell me sir, how is this a lie?

2) I personally don't think liberals are less patriotic that Republicans. I don't think it is a liberal or conservative thing. What the heck does patriotic mean anyway?

I certainly don't think people disagreeing with the war, the direction of the country, etc. is unpatriotic (for lack of a better word). Heck, one could consider such actions extremely patriotic as they are trying to shape and better this country. To me, we might disagree greatly on the course we should take, but it is all about bettering the country and moving the ball forward. Under that vein, I have zero problems with those who believe in communism or some other form of government if they truly share the same end goal.

That being said, I do think there is a group out there (the Algers of the world) that has nothing but utter contempt for their country and they would like to see it fail. I think this group secretly likes seeing terrrorists kill U.S. soldiers and they like seeing the U.S. "get its due". These people have no desire to advance U.S. interests and they simply dispise where they live. To those people I would say - "well, it you don't like it hear. Go somewhere else." Common sense to me. If you don't want to help and dont like us, we don't want you (although we will tolerate you) and you obviously don't want us. Why stay?

btw - again, I am not a conservative or a Bush supporter. Closest would probably be libertarian.

Re: Irony
 

'Or should we simply dismantle the military, turn a blind eye to the realities of the world and human nature, stick out heads in the sand, and just, uh, "pray?"'


lets remember 911 happened because pc crap and laziness and stupidity. no locking cockpit doors, pilots not armed, cant be suspicious of suspicous looking characters, etc.

and thats the very best interpretation. worst case realistic model (ie it fits the evidence) people wont consider for emotional reasons.

Re: The big Con
 

'
To those people I would say - "well, it you don't like it hear. Go somewhere else." Common sense to me. If you don't want to help and dont like us, we don't want you (although we will tolerate you) and you obviously don't want us. Why stay?
'

so if parents (who in their area are a minority) dont want their preteen/teen daughters to get on demand secret abortions via school and stuff and all that goes along with that, you think they are wrong to lobby and get 'their' guys on school board and change policy , etc. ? they should just pack up and leave?

to take a line from the jews, where should they (eventually ahve to) go? the moon?

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

When defining everything as "good" or "bad," the left-of-center crowd seems to demonize everything to the right of themselves

The right of center tends to do the same thing as well. The left, though, seems to exude more a sense of intellectual superiority, as if looking down their nose at people who express conservative views.

For me, I take solace in the fact that many very conservative people I meet consider me hideously liberal, and many liberals I know consider me to be to the right of Attila the Hun (but to the left of Gerry Callahan*)


* fans of Boston sports radio will get that one.

Re: Irony
 

Conservatives were against America's involvement in World War II and were against gearing up for fighting the Soviet Union in the Cold War until the liberal Harry Truman forced them into it. There was a very strong streak of isolationism in the mainstream, conservative Republican Party. They were the ones who wanted to bury their heads in the sand and dismantle the military.

Con(servative) artists
 

"I personally don't think liberals are less patriotic that Republicans. I don't think it is a liberal or conservative thing."

I am not referring to you when I claim that conservatives lie, that they lie big and that they lie most of the time. I don't know you personally so I cannot tell. That you jump up at every opportunity to defend the conservatives from my accusation is intriguing, on two fronts: (a) it may indicate from you an unwitting identification with their causes, depite your repeated denials that you have ever inhaled conservative fart, and (b) it robs me of the chance to debate this with an out-out-out proponent of those lies!

"What the heck does patriotic mean anyway?"

I cannnot define what patriotic is but I know it when I see it

"The perennial and blatant conservative lie about liberals being less patriotic than conservatives... : This is clearly an opinion. Please tell me sir, how is this a lie?"

No, it is not an opinion, it is a lie. All kidding aside, one of the primary attributes of patriotism (Greek patris: one's country) is to willingly serve your country. It is therefore dowright insulting and as blatant a lie as they come, when conservatives accuse as "unpatriotic" people who have served their country in uniform and have seen battle, especially when those same conservatives have shirked from that elementary patriotic duty.

The sight of politican chicken hawks accusing as "unpatriotic"liberal politicians, when liberal war veterans in Congress outnumer conservative war veterans, is nauseating. They are using a pure, unadulterated lie for petty politics. They know that this is not so (one man had lost two legs and an arm, for pete's sake, yet his loyalty to America was questioned by his GOP prick of an opponent), and they know that their claim is completely unsupported by facts, yet they consciously mouth off those false claims, in order to gain political brownie points.

--Cyrus

PS : Republican politicians were not always like that. It was a Republican who was among the first to stand up to the lies and smears of Joe McCarthy. People were more honorable back then, and politics was not as disgusting a pit of lying hounds as it's become.

About Bozo-in-Chief
 

You don't think the Bozo-in-Chief is a Bozo?

The record shows that Double You is a silver-spoon-fed, draft-evadin', cocaine-sniffin', drunk drivin', consistently lyin', heartless & gutless politician of below-average intelligence (even as pols go). Maybe bozo is not accurate enough but it's shorthand.

What would you prefer?

Re: About Bozo-in-Chief
 

' politician of below-average intelligence (even as pols go'

funny thing is he was very articulte speaker as gov of texas, from 1st hand accounts. so what hppnd?

Re: Irony
 

Isolationism and dismantling the military are somewhat different things, I think.

Truman wasn't a "conservative?" What about Jefferson? Or Franklin? Is there any difference in peoples' minds between "progressive" "liberal" Democrats," and "Old Hard Line" "conservative" "Republicans" within these two subsets.?

It would seem not.

Re: About Bozo-in-Chief
 

Also, W. scored over 1200 on his SATs (at least I've so read). Could any truly stupid person do that? Cyrus' prior defense of his claim that W. is stupid, as I recall, was based on nothing more than saying that his actions prove he is stupid, and that he has some problem with dyslexia. I said being dyslexic doesn't necessarily imply stupidity but Cyrus disagreed. Well, in high school I knew a genius who happened to be dyslexic, so if W. has a problem with dyslexia that doesn't prove him stupid IMO. All in all I think it rather ironic that Cyrus should be accusing others of lying in this thread;-)

Huh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, you make an ironic point.

If it had not been for many great American "conservatives," who live in the world as IT IS, rather than the way they'd LIKE IT TO BE, we might live in a country where you were NOT, indeed, welcome to leave.

Go figure.

To put it in pop culture terms: "You WANT me on that wall. You NEED me on that wall. And while my existence might seem grotesque to you, I save lives. So grab a weapon and man a post. Otherwise, I'd rather you just said thank you, and went on your way."

Or should we simply dismantle the military, turn a blind eye to the realities of the world and human nature, stick out heads in the sand, and just, uh, "pray?"

[/ QUOTE ]

This response is oh-so-typical of the arguments the Limbaugh-Hannity "conservative" crowd like to use. (I have been using quotes around "conservatives" to separate them from the more intellectual right of center types).

This post does not address anything I put in my post. It merely makes the same insinuations that the Limbaugh-Hannity talk show crowd make all the time: The greatness of this country is a result of military tough guys (like Col. Jessop from "A Few Good Men") who live in "the real world", who are too busy handling "real world problems" to listen to what the bleeding heart pansy liberals have to say. The post also insinuates that I would like to see the dismantling of the US military(??) My post was about open public discourse without telling those who disagree that "if you don't like it, leave".

What my post has to do with the dismantling of the US military and "A Few Good Men", I'm not exactly sure.

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with the concept behind the US being a governmental one. I think it is more along the lines of thinking that it is a great meritocracy

Well, a free country is a meritocracy to a certain extent. But that wasn't my point. I meant defined as a nation by governmental concept as opposed to defined as a nation by ethnicity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you are trying to say. I won't belabor the point.
[ QUOTE ]

those who work hard and are willing to sublimate completely into Americana will achieve "the American dream", so to speak.

I disgree completely. The US seems to me to be a place where you can "do your own thing" and succeed. I'm not sure I know what "sublimate completely into Americana" means.


[/ QUOTE ]

This has changed over the years. It used to be that people though to make it in America, you had to change your Anglicize your name at Ellis Island, learn English as fast as possible, and try to fit in to mainstream America as much as possible. This paradigm has changed drastically in the last 20-30 years and being able to succeed by "doing your own thing" is probably closer to the reality these days.
[ QUOTE ]

Regardless, this country is a pretty damn heterogenous place. Besides, there's little difference in you saying "bozo-in-chief" and your adversary saying "if you don't like it, leave." You're both exercising your right to free speech. What you say offends him, what he says offends you. There is no right to not be offended by other people's opinions.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to deny anyone their first amendment rights. But I think you are dead wrong when comparing someone calling Bush the "bozo-in-chief" to telling someone "to leave if you don't like it". Insulting Dubya isn't the same as implying someone is unpatriotic or un-American.

Given the fact that a
 

bonus whore is much more likely to be 53 year old bald guy from Pittsburgh looking for an $100 bonus on Party Poker than any sort of mid 20's platinum blonde (advertising is SOO misleading), I hope the only "manly hetero" things you are going to do with them are drink and play cards.

Question for Utah
 

What gives with your constant references to Alger as being anti-American? There was a previous poster (who shall rename nameless) who liked to accuse people (including myself) of being Al Qaeda and Hamas sympathizers if we didn't agree with Dubya's Middle East strategy. Fortunately, he was a real wack job and no one took him seriously. So while I'm sure Mr. Alger doesn't need a lawyer, I still want to ask, what proof do you have that he wants to see American soldiers killed? 40 years ago Joe McCarthy ruined a lot of people's lives by levelling half-assed accusations at them. I highly doubt your posts will have the same effect, but they are still pretty serious accusations, given the times we live in.

LOL!!! I can Compete with the Bald Guy Angle anyway........
 

.....still, it would be great to nail a REAL hoe tyat's not a x-dresser - don't you think

Re: \"If you don\'t like it, leave\"
 

Insulting Dubya isn't the same as implying someone is unpatriotic or un-American.

It's precisely the same thing. Free speech is free speech is free speech.

Re: Question for Utah
 

I still want to ask, what proof do you have that he wants to see American soldiers killed?

I have no proof, as the wording of my statement clearly indicated. In fact, my statement clearly implies that Alger has said nothing on the sort - hence the word secretly.

However, if you want to get a sense of his negative view towards America and his positive views towards terrorists read his previous posts.

Concerning being a sympathizer, since you brought up the word, Alger is clearly a Palestinian Terrorist (freedom fighter) sympathizer. Again, read all his posts.

So while I'm sure Mr. Alger doesn't need a lawyer
Nope, just a shrink.

Question authority...
 

you have every right to.

But it's the realists who will be prepared.

Without liberals, there'd be no health care, emancipation proclamation, etc. etc.

And those are all good things that have eventually been accepted by the right (the sane ones, anyway). But there's a fine line between progress and incitement, and unfortunately the American (and worldwide) left has crossed it.

Re: Question authority...
 

"Without liberals, there'd be no health care, emancipation proclamation, etc. etc."

I'm more than a bit curious as to how you arrived at this conclusion.

Re: Question authority...
 

Yeah. Health care comes from doctors and the EP was authored by a Republican [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]