Who made the bigger mistake?
 

The Scene: Party Poker 10-20 - very loose and not very aggressive. The other table from the one in my post "Save 1 big bet?"

I get dealt A3o on the button. The utg (our antagonist in this hand) limped, a couple (three?) others limped and I limped while the blinds came along. Loose I know, but I'm feeling spunky at this table and feel like I can outplay these guys on later streets.

The flop was K3x. After the utg bet and the others folded I raised to get heads-up, which I did. The utg called.

The turn was some medium blank card and we both checked.

The river was another 3 and the utg check called my bet and showed K9s (or was it K8s? I don't zackly 'member.)

BR

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

Well you certainly did outplay him. If he's going to play top pair so weakly, your thought than you can outplay 'em seems justified. So long as we define outplaying as losing less than they would and winning more than they would in the same situation, which I suppose is the only definition there is.

An example of pre-flop play not being all that important if your position allows you to use your skills to play better than your opponents post-flop.

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

He most certainly did NOT outplay him.

This is a beautiful example of horrible playing being lauded as 'good' in light of results.

He chased 5 outs in a small pot with no pot odds. Pathetic.

Not to mention how poorly A3o plays at all, nevermind in a multi-way pot.

He didn't outplay him. Outplaying would have been to get his opponent to fold his better hand. Especially after that horrible turn check, the opponent will call basically any river bet. Getting lucky does not count as outplaying, and surely POOR play doesn't count either.

If this is how you play, come play at my table PLEASE!!

-Scott

Perhaps, but...
 

Didn't he say he was feeling spunky? I mean, I'd much rather take A3o out for a spin on the button with all them limpers instead of say,

limping UTG with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], now, wouldn't you?

~stephen

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

I completely agree. The poster will get no praise from me. Using the excuse that he was "feeling frisky" and the fact that he had the button as an excuse to play A3o in a multiway pot is horrible. That's called tilt.

Chasing a 5-out draw in a small pot headsup is ludicrous. If your goal was to really outplay your opponent, and not try to outdraw him, then you should've bet the turn to try and push him off of a better hand.

At least you played the river correctly, although you never should've been there in the first place.

GoT

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

I'm not sure any player, no matter how good, can play well enough after the flop to turn A3o into a winner in a 7-handed pot, even from the button, even in a very soft game. A3o just doesn't make enough strong hands.

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

He bought a free card with a raise. A bet on the turn will get a call anyhow, so that serves no purpose, if he bets when checked to. The other player messed up by not leading out on the turn if he intended to see a showdown thinking that top pair was best. He can fold if he doesn't improve.

Outplaying doesn't always mean making them fold.

[ QUOTE ]
If this is how you play, come play at my table PLEASE!!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous on many levels.

~D

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

Not that I'm defending anyone, but I guess wheels and trips don't count, eh?

~stephen

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

He didn't say it didn't make any good hands just not as many as other hands.

72o can flop boats and quads and other juicy hands too, but you aren't going to play that anytime soon.

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

Loose I know, but I'm feeling spunky at this table and feel like I can outplay these guys on later streets.

Sorry, not a loose call but a true turkey. You got lucky.

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

72o can flop boats and quads and other juicy hands too, but you aren't going to play that anytime soon.

Buckshot will play that, he'll play anything...

-S

LOL
 

You so silly, Mr. 23s UTG.

~stephen

My thoughts
 

I suspect that Andy is being kind, while SoBe is being a little harsh. Yeah, I know, A3o isn't the greatest of hands. Normally this is turbo mucked, but this table, at this time, was that one time out of 50 or 100 that I felt it was worth speculating. I was more interested in the group's reaction to the flop raise with bottom pair to get a free turn card.

When the utg bets out on the flop, there is $70 or $80 in the pot. If I raise and then do improve, I'm counting on another $10 with his call and $40 on later streets (either betting on the turn and river when I improve or raising him on the river when he bets and I improve) bringing implied odds to $120 or $130 for my $20 to raise the flop. He could have ruined this calculation by reraising, of course. It turns out I only received implied odds of $100 or $110 to $20 because he didn't co-operate by betting out on the river after I checked behind. Nonetheless, with 5 outs twice, I like the odds.

And, Buckshot, what's wrong with 23s utg? LOL

BR

Re: My thoughts
 

I was not being kind. You did ouplay him.

Playing the A-3 pre-flop is a terrible play, no matter how spunky you feel. In fact, when feeling spunky, it's probably a bigger mistake. We shouldn't play when we're feeling either spunky or funky, it tends to cloud our judgment.

On the flop, if your opponent has a king, and there's no guarantee he does, you're about a 4:1 dog. But if you have a weak-tight opponent who will meekly call a raise and then check to give you a free card, and meekly call when you improve, this is the ideal opponent. (See Mason's recent article, about which mike l. has commented in a recent post.) After all, he limped in UTG with K-9, and then proved that you could indeed outplay him by doing everything wrong with his top pair.

Who'd you rather have in your game: A guy who limps in UTG and then merely calls your flop raise when he has top pair and then checks the turn and checks the river? Or a guy who overlimps on the button with A-x and then raises the flop sometimes even when he doesn't hit the Ace? Yeah, playing the A-3 pre-flop ain't great. But playing K-9 UTG and then playing like Ron's opponent played post-flop if far worse.

HEPFAP deals with the postflop here
 

Sklansky, in HEPFAP, in the chapter on semi-bluffing a hand very much like this is discussed (A3) and he reccomended, essentially, to play it exactly like you did (except for the preflop). Of course his advice probably wasn't meant for a game with 7 limpers, though.

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At least you played the river correctly, although you never should've been there in the first place.


[/ QUOTE ]
You think so? I think a checkdown would have been the best decision. IMO This is a "only a worse hand will fold and a only a better hand will call" situation. The UTG bet represents a piece of the board or a semi-bluff. So assuming the UTG bet was not a dominated pair of 3s - he would either fold his semi-bluff or call his bigger pair.

Bubs

Re: HEPFAP deals with the postflop here
 

On the flop, UTG bet and the other limpers folded. So the fact the "seven limpers" are gone. While the pot odds and implied odds make the play somewhat close, if you have a guy who'll meekly call and then check and let you make your hand, and then pay you off when you hit, who could ask for anything more, who could ask for anything more?

Re: Who made the bigger mistake?
 

I think you misread the original post. The river was a three, giving our hero trips.

FWIW, I think the hand was played well after the flop, given that he seemed to know his opponent. The fact that it was only barely a +ev situation just illustrates that the preflop call was not good.