Tell me what to do with $200....
 

Six months ago, I started running good.
Four months ago, I started running really good.
Two months ago, I started running flat.
One month ago, I started running bad.

It's not the cards. It's me. Simple.

Some of it is expectation - I think I ran unreasonably good for a while and my expectations got out of wack.

Some of it is playing patterns. About when the flat streak started, I began a new job which allowed me to play at work. I'm certain I wasn't playing my best then, and as a consequence may not have been taking it all as seriously as I should have.

I've tried several things - I started playing one table at a time, I moved around in limits (all for which I was adequately bankrolled for) and tried playing some NL or some tournaments.

In any event, I'm looking to break this trend, and I'm asking for advice. I've basically set aside $200 to start over with. And I'm asking everyone where I should begin.

Quite honestly, I don't want to start at .5/1, so, if you don't mind, let's avoid that suggestion. Yes, I know, bankroll considerations and all that, but I'm not really working with a finite bankroll. I can replenish it, I've played my way through .5/1 and 1/2 and 2/4 and 3/6, beating all of them for a time...

...realistically, I'm looking for a goal, something to keep me focused. I intend to stop playing at work, b/c I think it's counterproductive (to my playing, of course, not to work)...

Advice welcome. Let me have it...

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

A thougbt I wanted to add.

I think I made a lot of money playing too tight. I chose to draw very little, even when I probably have the odds to do so. I was dumping almost everything short of top pair. I avoided gutshots, even when I may have had the rights odds, and I didn't bother with something like bottom pair, top kicker, even when the pot was offering me good odds.

In recent weeks, I've been playing a bit differently. More suited connectors, more drawing to two pair if I close the action, and am getting good odds, etc. It likely has added some variance to my results.

Just some of the things I consider...

I wonder if I didn't hit some form of that "stage in a poker players life" where, while not every hand seems to have value, more than do seem to...

(if that makes sense)

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

It's kind of hard to give meaningfulo advice, not really knowing your financial situation. Why don't you try playing 1/2, and do a OIC type thing at the site of your choice? If you have more money and cringe at the thought, start at 2/4.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

That's the weird thing. I mean, I started at .5/1 and worked up to 3/6 and some 5/10... It isn't really about the money, so much. I think I lost focus along the way.

The bankroll I cashed out was enough to play 3/6 consistently. But it was, er, shrinking. I feel like I need to start over, somehow.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

I'd definitely use this time to [re]-read some books. Go over one's you've already read, and read a new one. It's some times nice to get away from the game, study, build some confidence, and then get back at it. Even if you don't radically change your stakes, on some level, you feel like you're starting anew.

Good luck.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

ElSapo -

You have quite a few hands under your belt at this time. Go back and really read through HEPFAP again and the Theory of Poker. I mean really sit down and read them and relate them to hands you have played. It's amazing how things come alive as you work through the concepts. It's like studying math theory, any monkey can learn the process but few understand it.

Here is another thing I like to do, when I'm looking for sporty fun. I will grind a 5/10 game for 4 or 5 hours online, just as tough as I can. Mind in every hand, note taking like a maniac, track the players and eak out every bet I can.

Then as a treat I'll go play a sit and go. $6 or $11 and I get to be the maniac I want to be for 60 to 100 hands.

The suprising thing is I money in most of those tournies.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

I was having problems at $1/2 at Stars. Not as high as you have been but I decided the problem was me, so I withdrew enough money so that I had to start again at .25/.50. But not to long there. I am back up at .50/$1 and will stay there till I have the money to go back to $1/2. At least at Stars. I WILL NOT put any additional money in this account "if" it can be helped. That way I must play to the best of my ability if I want to continue. I think if losing the money doesn't hurt, then errors can continue or even escalate. If you have been able to handle higher limits, just drop down 1 or 2 and play your way back up.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

Almost exactly one year into playing I tapped out. I ran real bad for a month and lost 12 months worth of winnings. Like you I couldn't stand the thought of starting at micro limits again so I took $600 and started at 2/4 (I also could replenish if needed). But I started with the mindset that this was my last $600. I promised myself I wouldn't go up in limits until I had 250 BB's for the next limit.

THis seemed to refocus me and I played well. I have never had to rebuy again.

You cannot make a bankroll last 5 months without being a winning player. You will find your game again. Play smart and within your capabilities.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

Your post really struck a chord with me. I'm going through the exact same situation. I ran $130 to $2500 in a few months at micro levels and now am absolutely stuck for the past month (around 5000 hands). I believe I'm playing as good as I've ever played but just as you said, is it really the cards or is it me?

PM me with any revelations you may have regarding this issue. Maybe we can start a support group or something [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Good advice Dave (NM)
 

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

Here's what I did. I went through a really sharp period at Party 3/6 where my win rate was solid and I was taking money out regularly. Had a bit of a crisis and needed extra cash for X-mas presents, so I made a big withdrawal and subsequently hit a really bad streak so my online bankroll got pretty crippled. I took some time to identify what game types gave me the biggest advantage and made a commitment to only play those games as a means to build up my bankroll.

I now play primarilty 2-table NLHE SNG's at 'Stars ($10 or $20). This is where my best risk/return space exists. If I'm above my target win rate for the week, I'll play in one satellite for the $200 + 15 NLHE. If not, I continue with my SNG's. (props here to Copernicus, whose posts on the Tournament board on solid SNG play have helped me greatly)

For variety (and my biggest enemy has always been a yen for too much variety - ask my ex wives [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), I also play Stud/8, no higher than 1/2. At these levels, tight aware play is serving me quite well.

I am specifically avoiding hold'em ring games until my bankroll is at least equal to the level it was before my last big cashout.


I estimate that my poker time will be broken down to 80% SNG, 20% stud/8 cash for the next 3 months or so.

The point is, honestly assess where you have the biggest edge and don't let ego get in your way. I'd been fighting may way through the swings at HE ring games for too long. I decided it was time to pick a specialty and stick to it.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

I know you don't want to start at .50/1.00 again, El Sapo, but have you ever thought about doing your own OIC thing? I started doing that myself and find that I tend to play much better because it gives me good short-term goals, which I really enjoy, considering hold em is a long-term game.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

Be honest with yourself, and the rest of us 2+2'ers...... you want advise, but don't want to drop back in limits. WELL - almost every post said drop back, get refocused and start over. There is no easy fix. If you can't stand the 50 cent game, make yourself play that limit and win at least 100 units before you move - hey, three tables that's only about 10 hours, then do the same with the next limit.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

you want advise, but don't want to drop back in limits.

Yes, but dropping back from 3/6 and 5/10 to .5/1 may be a tad on the excessive side.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

I was running really badly for a while as well. Finally decided to buckle down and play my best poker- no more paying off like a slot machine. Anyway, I started 2 5/10 SH games at Party last night. A buddy came over and was clicking the buttons while me and my girl ate dinner. We won about every damn hand we played and were going nuts- hifiving, mouthing the opponents (not on chat, just out loud to ourselves), just acting like complete asses. Played 1.5 hours and booked a 700 buck win -one of my biggest days ever. Poker was fun again. I think you just need to have some fun with poker and you will play better. Find what makes it fun again. It will lead to prosperity.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've basically set aside $200 to start over with. And I'm asking everyone where I should begin.

Quite honestly, I don't want to start at .5/1, so, if you don't mind, let's avoid that suggestion. Yes, I know, bankroll considerations and all that, but I'm not really working with a finite bankroll. I can replenish it, I've played my way through .5/1 and 1/2 and 2/4 and 3/6, beating all of them for a time...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you don't want to drop back down to .5/1 then at least set yourself up with a reasonable bankroll so you won't start playing scared with your "experiment" money. Even if the bankroll is replenishable it will be quite depressing if you do go bust. Start with $400 and play 1/2. If you can't beat the 1/2 tables because of some leaks you won't beat the better tables.




[ QUOTE ]
...realistically, I'm looking for a goal, something to keep me focused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you thought of doing some bonuswhoring? You'll have the clearly indentified goal of playing x amount of hands to earn x amount of bonus. The nice part is that since you you only have to break even at the tables to make money, you may begin to play in the more natural, tighter, ABC style that likely helped to generate your previous profits, without going for the fancy plays that increase your variance. This may just be what the doctor ordered. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

I think you need to figure out why it is that you are playing, and what made the game enjoyable. Then you can redirect your efforts, in a way that you find rewarding.

I think that you might have found some things that seemed to work, and then tried to apply them mechanically to a lot of situations. Then the game got boring, you didn't play well, and you ran poorly.

I might suggest that you try and play one table at a time, and just to play the hell out of that table. It doesn't matter what limit. Figure out what mistakes everyone at the table is making, and figure out how to play to take advantage of those mistakes. Then do it.

Use the knowledge that you have acquired in playing holdem, and go and play other games. Stud, Omaha, and their hilo variations. Play triple draw low on UB. You will learn something new, and that might be fun. You will probably learn something that will make you a better holdem player also.

Do something like the OIC, and start at whatever level you need to, and then work your way up. Maybe you will get to try some new limits.

Or just take a week/month/year off, and go do something else.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

I agree 100% with Bob T., especially the part about taking some time off. I think the game may have become a grind for you, and that's not fun for anyone. And it especially sounds like a grind if you don't want to drop way back down in limits. It happens to the best, and I've certainly had to do it a few times.

-Brian

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

It sounds like your playing holdem primarily..
Have you considered working on another game like 7stud, or PLo8?

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

Sit n Go's are also a nice change of pace from the normal ring game grind.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions so far. All of them are good, and all of them have given me a lot to think about.

I wanted to respond to some of Bob T's comments...


I think you need to figure out why it is that you are playing, and what made the game enjoyable. Then you can redirect your efforts, in a way that you find rewarding.

You're right.

I started playing at the beginning of the year, and made my first deposit back in March, I think, onto Party. After a small bump, I became a consistent winner. And while the money was always nice, it didn't seem the real -reason- I was playing. The game was new and novel, the other players not really a threat many times, and I was learning something new.

Fast forward to August-September-October, and it was a part-time job. I was basically making, playing 2/4 and 3/6, another 50% on top of what my employer pays me. I had some good weeks, some great weeks, a few amazing months. Like many posters, I started to up the hours I was playing and entertained (for myself) some unrealistic (for the moment) thoughts about playing full time.

To some extent, I burned out. You may recall a post from a month or so ago when I essentially played an absurd amount of hours and broke even, seeing lots of little ups and downs over the course of a session. But the problem wasn't cards, it was me and tilting, and being tired and frustrated at times.

I took a break, and then I took a vacation. Both times, the pattern was the same -- I'd return from a break, play well, post some wins, seem to be back on track and then fall into another slump. That happened twice.

I think my results, following running perhaps overly-good, led me to a series of unreasonable expectations. No longer was I playing because I enjoyed it; I was playing for the money, and if I wasn't winning it was frustrating.

I think that you might have found some things that seemed to work, and then tried to apply them mechanically to a lot of situations. Then the game got boring, you didn't play well, and you ran poorly.

One post stands out in my head right now -- the whole 57s debate v. two EP limpers. I think I read this post and thought about it, and tried to incorporate some of the ideas, and essentially misunderstood and misapplied some of the concepts. And then, when I would be frustrated, I think I would use ideas like this to play more hands when I should have.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Frankly, at the limits I was playing, with possible exception of agressive 3/6 games, weak-tight can bring home the money. Weak-tight at Party 2/4 may not be good poker, but it works. But when I tried to really branch out and become more creative, more agressive, I found myself getting smacked around.

A return to ABC poker would get me winning again, and then I'd three-bet a late-position raiser with 99 (not that this is wrong)... In some respects I began, and am, trying to force things at the wrong times.

My game may still be improving, I think sometimes, and I'm missing a piece that lets me know when to make certain plays and when to leave it alone.

The funny thing is...

...on an intellectual level, learning limit hold'em is arguably one of the most rewarding things I've done in a long time. I've been posting on 2+2 for about a year now, and when I go back and look at my first posts they're almost comical.

These days I find I have something to say, reasons behind my analysis, and an understanding that not everyone will agree with me. People think differently, and the thought process on some of the hands is fascinating in an abstract, river-card-be-damned, way.

This is all quite a bit of rambling, I know. That may have been a long way of saying these days I'm posting better than I'm playing.

I have a lot of thinking to do. I am, I think, in a big slump. It may have begun with a bad run and I am continuing it myself. It may have begun with myself and been exacerbated by a bad run. It may just be me me me.

On the idea of playing one table: I agree, but frankly, after playing 3 tables, it's like having an attention problem. It is difficult to adjust to.

On dropping in limits: I am comfortable with the play at 2/4, and I don't think it's a matter of being outclassed (though some may say I'm deluding myself).

The problem with dropping back in limits is how it coincides with that first issue I mentioned... Money. I need to return to playing poker for the sake of the game, and let the money come. But this is a hard adjustment to make.

Sorry to ramble, I know this is long. You guys should just be glad you don't get the emails my friends here in D.C. get... now those are long.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

Play $10 no limit tournaments.

Play super tight for three rounds, give or take a round or so depending on how many are left.

When it gets to the fourth round, push in on every hand you play and some you really don't want to play if you are in late position, if you are on the small blind and it has been folded to you, or if you are on the big blind and there are some weak limpers.

You will have a new, large bankroll in no time.

-Mike

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

This post is exactly what i wanted to post and then i saw your post.I was beating the 2-4 game at party with an ease. In 3 months (sept to nov) i made 11000$ and i was doing really well so i become over confident. I played 5 tables at once when i was at my best. In december i dont know what is happening to me since i lost 1000$ on same limits. My confidence is down and i dont find the right motivation to win again like i was used to. What do u sugest?

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

I've found that taking up Omaha very kind to my bankroll.
Play .5/1 Omaha (hi/lo obviously... hi only is a joke) for a week just to learn the game so you don't make too many mistakes.

Then go play 3/6 omaha and you'll be shocked how easy it is to beat this game at low limits.

I find it's a great game to learn because if I'm taking big losses on Hold'Em I'll go to the Omaha table and rebuild my bankroll three times as fast as if I played lower limit hold'em.

The only disadvantage to the game, I hear, is that nobody can win at the higher level games(not including pot limit). Supposedly the rake wins when everyone knows what they're doing. Fortunately, most omaha players have no concept of drawing odds.

Oh, and if you're playing on partypoker, don't even think of playing stud. The ante on the stud games there is stupid- and with loose players, it's like a slot machine.

Good luck.

Re: Tell me what to do with $200....
 

"Frankly, at the limits I was playing, with possible exception of agressive 3/6 games, weak-tight can bring home the money. Weak-tight at Party 2/4 may not be good poker, but it works. But when I tried to really branch out and become more creative, more agressive, I found myself getting smacked around. "



El Sapo
I think this hits the nail on the head, it did for me. I was playing 2/4 on Party for a while and doing very well. I was basically following the advice in Jones book and playing some draws when the odds were right.

I started re-reading HEFAP and trying to be more creative in that game and it was actually hurting my win rate.

I have since moved to the 3/6 game and although in many of the games the weak/tight strategy works I have found many more opportunities to be creative.

I am wondering about the differences between those levels and the 5/10 game.

Good luck
Scott