Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

1st, the weird things w/Pokertropolis that made me curious.
1. During the course of the day, Pokertropolis goes from about 30 to about 55 real money players. This is extremely low variance, as other comparable sites like ACR go from 3-30 and WSex from about 18-61.
2. On a day w/out network troubles, Pokertropolis usually has over $3 million in real money pots/24hr period. For some perspective, Ultimate Bet cracks $3 million on a good day.
3. #2 is most likely due to their HU games. They have huge HU games that go 24hr hours/day, 7 days/week. Multiple huge HU games. Why would a backwater site like this attract more high stakes HU action than the rest of the internet combined?
4. Whenever you log into Pokertropolis, you will see 2 $1/$2 games, 1 $3/$6, either a $15/$30 or a $20/$40, and possibly a $2/$4. The only site I've seen be more consistent w/the games it has going is the late Pro Poker.
5. Some posters, JamesBurke amongst them, have said that something is not right at Pokertropolis.

Based on all of this, I sent the following email to Pokertropolis.

Dear Pokertropolis,

I have noticed that your site does not display characteristics similar to other sites of your size. Specifically, your player base is much more consistent throughout the day than any other site, and the amount of money wagered is absolutely huge compared to other comparable sites. I do realize the discrepancy in money wagered is largely due to your large HU games that are constantly going.

I would appreciate answers to the following questions:

1. Are your HU games real? (i.e. not just shills or bots playing against each other for publicity)

2a. Do you use bots in your ring games?
2b. If so, do your bots have access to any information that a regular player would not?

3a. Do you use props?
3b. If so, How are you able to keep such a consistent number playing when many sites struggle immensely with this task?

4. If the answers to questions 2 & 3 are both 'no,' how do you explain your consistent ring game statistics?

I thank you in advance for your prompt, honest response. Both myself and the internet poker community, are looking forward to your answers. Thank you,

Jason Kirsner (known in the internet poker community as jek187)

Now for their response:

Hello Jason,

Thank you for your interest in Pokertropolis. Currently, we do not have proposition players on our site, nor have we in the past. Pokertropolis is dedicated to maintaining the most honest and secure poker card room on the Internet. This is designed for real people to play other real people. Period!

Please note, Pokertropolis.com is the poker division of Horizon20.com. Horizon20 is an established leader in online gaming and have been for over 6 years. Horizon 20 comprises a total of five Internet gaming properties. Including eHorse.com, the largest horse racing site on the Internet, Las Palmas.com sportsbook, betting exchange and casino, WitEuro.com sportsbook and betting exchange specializing in European sports and Autobet.us, which showcases pari-mutuel betting for all types of motor sports.


Many of our high stakes customers come from our other sister sites where they can easily transfer money between all five Horizon20 properties to place wagers on their favorite games, athletes, races or more.

As you may also know, we offer a 25% Sign-Up bonus to all new customers as well as a Bad Beat Jackpot that resets to $10,000 after it is hit (while on the subject, a lucky table just won over $17,000 a few days ago). I think these “better than industry standard” promotions, give players a reason to play consistently.

I hope this thoroughly answers your questions, and once again, I thank you for your interest in Pokertropolis and hope you will join the ranks of our valued customers.


Jim Silvers

Pokertropolis Public Relations
Pokertropolis.com
US and Canada call 1(800) 625-8354
International toll 011-506-242-4856

A Company.


Well, I wasn't exactly pleased w/their response. Seemed very slippery. So I sent this email:


Hi Jim,

I'm sorry, but aside from the question regarding your usage of props, it doesn't seem like you answered my other 3 questions, although you do imply certain things.

1. Are your HU games real? (i.e. not just shills or bots playing against each other for publicity) You state "Many of our high stakes customers come from our other sister sites where they can easily transfer money between all five Horizon20 properties to place wagers on their favorite games, athletes, races or more." But you don't actually answer the question. I would like to add the qualifier "Are ALL your HU games real?"

2a. Do you use bots in your ring games?
2b. If so, do your bots have access to any information that a regular player would not?

This set of questions was not even touched on.

3a. Do you use props?
3b. If so, How are you able to keep such a consistent number playing when many sites struggle immensely with this task?

This was answered nice and succinctly. Thank you.

4. If the answers to questions 2 & 3 are both 'no,' how do you explain your consistent ring game statistics?

I think this question was misunderstood. What I notice with your site is that the daily peaks and valleys are much less pronounced than any other site out there. How have you managed to smooth that out?

I thank you for the time you have taken to respond to me, and look forward to your next response. Sincerely,

Jason Kirsner


Pokertropolis then responds w/:

Hi again Jason,

I apologize if the previous letter wasn't clear enough. Pokertropolis is for real people to play other real people. Robots or any type of automated software in not welcome at our site. Period!

Thanks,


Jim Silvers

Pokertropolis Public Relations
Pokertropolis.com
US and Canada call 1(800) 625-8354
International toll 011-506-242-4856

A Company.


I took this to mean that he was done w/me. Fair enough, time to go to the Zoo. My opinion has probably come across already, but I'd like to hear what the rest of the Zoo thinks about this.

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

It does seem reasonable to me that sports book customers would use the site for high stakes poker. I believe that is why Ladbrokes has large high stakes games (200-400, 5-10NL), customers of their online bookies (sports book) use their roll their to play poker.

The other possibility of course is a large scale money laundering, but i can think of better ways of doing that.

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that is why Ladbrokes has large high stakes games (200-400, 5-10NL), customers of their online bookies (sports book) use their roll their to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a legit point, but something to consider. Compare all the big $$ action at Ladbrokes to all the big $$ action at Pokertropolis. Just for the hell of it, here's a spot check:

Pokertropolis: 1 HU $30/$60, 1 HU $50/$100, 1 HU $100/$200, 1 player sitting at HU $200/$400
Ladbrokes: 2 players sitting alone at $50/$100 HU, One player sitting alone at $100/$200, and a full $50/$100 game.

Fairly even in terms of money wagered, but now keep in mind: Ladbrokes is about ten times the size of Pokertropolis.

[ QUOTE ]
The other possibility of course is a large scale money laundering, but i can think of better ways of doing that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This idea hadn't actually crossed my mind. I was more thinking their HU games are shills/bots playing together for publicity.

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

Those same players who play big heads up limits are the same ones who used to play at wsex -eg cupcake,tinman etc.I don't remember why but wsex lost those players to pokertroplis many months ago.(due to site being down or something?)Anyway I have played there from time to time and have noticed nothing unusal -although I have never cashed out there yet... But for the record I do like wsex better but am open to try new sites.

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

Great job Jek good investigating!!

....yes a bunch of guys moved over from WSEX 6 months ago.
bobcards and others were/are playing there also but now I see him more at PokerStars losing in the 100-200 ring games but winning in the 100-200 hu games.
I havent checked out PokerTroplis in a month.

I have spoken to guys playing HU at PokerTropolis and they seem like genuine real players nasty and funny and giving each other chit as hu players often do..they were not bots and they were defintely not soft-playing each other..because emotions were flying and tens of thousands being moved around.

Now maybe the HU players may be in on the ring game chirade but I doubt it.Investors in the site can operate teams in the ring games...who knows???

I have spoken to cupcake and he seems like a genuinely nice guy ...but anything is possible ..these guys are making/losing 100K a month in big games..so if they are out of action and broke like they often are I bet they do almost anything to get back into action....

I mentioned that the smoothness of this site's ring games not HU games is/was very strange.

Me personally I think teams are in the ring games and the HU games are legit.I could be wrong...

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

As far as the HU goes, 2 respected sources have now said they're real games. Ok, I can believe that.

But what I want to know, is *why* these players would choose Pokertropolis of all sites?

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

[ QUOTE ]
But what I want to know, is *why* these players would choose Pokertropolis of all sites?


[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't it come down to the logistics of funding your account? How long do you think it would take you to fund a PartyPoker or PokerStars account with $50,000?

If you had this amount in a sports book account they transferring within the same organization might be a lot easier than checks or wiretransfers. But I have no idea how someone would get $50,000 into a spors book account [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

It's possible some big players have invested money in PokerTropolis or consulted to PokerTropolis/or been paid a fee to move their action there.
I am not privy to this information....I'm just a lowlimit grinder who likes to nose around [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] but I'm sure Bobcards or Mike Matsow or any other very high HU specialist may know exactly what the heck is going on there..

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

I think it would be pretty easy to spot a bot after watching the play for a few minutes. There are issues of pausing and other tics that humans have that makes them easy to spot. I know on Pokerroom there are at least 7 or 8 bots in the $1-$2 games that are pretty easy to beat once you realize their strategy.

The response from the company sound sufficient but I would have to check the site out for myself to see if it is suspicious.

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

Hi jek,
I switched from WSEX to Pokertropolis when the software was crashing at WSEX. I already had a sports account there. A lot of other players switched at the same time, including most of the big game HU players. I suspect they do well in the daytime because eHorse is the biggest racing site on the net and horses run all day long.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever played there?

doormat

SPort site = Security!!
 

A few months ago TOP_GUN and CHIMAN were playing HU 300-600. I saw TOP_GUN lose more than 120K in one session. There is no way to transfer that kind of money without the security of a big sport site (well respected) that people can trust 500K or more.

JAque

Re: SPort site = Security!!
 

they were playing for days on end ..didnt TOP GUN make some kind of comeback it looked like he did?? but there is really no way to know..only those 2 guys know.

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

Hey Jek,

I play primarily at Pokertropolis, Wsex and Poker Club. I have been a horizon 20 customer long before I ever played a hand of poker. I learned how to play from watching Eric 123,Cupcake, Bobcards,Bricktop, Chiman and a few of the other "greats." Of course Cuppys my favorite. LOL.

In order of win I have won the most at Pokertropolis than Poker club than WSEX. I know a lot of these players moved from WSEX to play at Pokertropolis and I followed. Horizon 20s been around for years. There solid and since Pokertropolis is a division of Horizon 20 that makes PT solid.

Just for your info I have Never had a problem cashing out at any of these sites.

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know on Pokerroom there are at least 7 or 8 bots in the $1-$2 games that are pretty easy to beat once you realize their strategy

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, first I've heard of this. I assume you have some evidence to back this up?

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

Maggie500
Lunchmoney
Bangkok27
Softplay
Opponent
Zagnut

There are a few others I can't quite think of off the top of my head. Notice they all are from cities that are different towns near Denver, CO. There are on pokerroom playing $1-$2 24 hours a day 7 days a week, which is impossible. Two of them are never in the same room. They never talk. They always play premium hands very aggresively, but on poor flops will muck to much pressure.

I assume it's a few smart kids from a university in Colorado who wrote a program and are reaping the marginal benefits. But what do I know? Anyone else have experience watching these?

Re: Pokertropolis, a little investigative reporting
 

I used to play at Pokeroom a lot and noticed the same thing about these players, I always assumed they were props. They are beatable once you know their style.

Another interesting point is that they have been playing at the 1/2 level for at least a year and I have never seen them in a higher limit room. Seems odd a when a winning player never moves up.

SF

A year at 1/2 is a long time for a prop, unless you see them at
 

A year at 1/2 is a long time for a prop, unless you see them at four tables simultaneously.

If you are getting rake rebated 100%, it is approximately two BB per hour and $4 per hour is more along the lines of retiree prop just passing time, or recreational retiree grinding $2 per hour in profit without prop.

However, I know several props who have played upwards of 25 years who love the idea of playing 1/2, 2/4, 3/6 or some combination of two or three of those tables...playing break even or slightly plus and getting 2 BB per hour in prop, without the "Lebronmania" that he experienced at multiple tables of $15/$30.

The key is the ability to play multiple tables of lower limits to collectively reach a reasonable income.

Re: A year at 1/2 is a long time for a prop, unless you see them at
 

A year at 1/2 is a long time for a prop, unless you see them at four tables simultaneously.

It is not possible to play more than one LHE game at the same time at Pokerroom, that is why I thought it was odd.

SF

Then, if they have props, they are playing multiple sites, or
 

Then, if they have props, they are playing multiple sites, or not making much.

About Bangkok Maggie and the rest...........
 

They aren't bots they are probably props, who are extremely tight to the point of stupidity. They do talk occasionally infact Watchin had a hate on for me. One day I berated a clown who tried to slashout Watchin with god knows what what and I got caught in the cross fire with top 2 A 10 and I knew watchin didnt have AA in the hole so I wasn't sure if we were splitting or she had low triples, anyway I called him a clown and Watchin thought I meant her and she berated me and called me a clown. Also Bangkok occasionally talks, so does Maggie and Rinopastee. Tetris and Zagnut never talk.

Bob cards used to play 10/20 paradise poker mano a mano
 

Back when Paradise poker had heavy mano a mano action. I guess he was a winning player there.(I know I wasn't but that's another story)Don't know that place became a ghosttown at the one on one level............