End of year review. Some common situations.
 

I come across these situations quite often and many of them are standard, but it doesnt hurt to review, assume all opponents are normal players, a bit to loose and passive, but nothing extreme.

Folded to you on the button, you raise AKs, BB calls, flop 853r he check raises you, and you?

You raise 88 in the hijack, button calls, blinds fold, flop T63r, you bet he calls, turn A, and you?

You hold red JJ in the sb, button raises and you three bet, he calls, flop KT6 with two spades, you bet and are raised, you?

Villan limps and you raise AKs, flop J62r, he checks calls, turn is a Q, he checks, and you?

You complete in the small blind after two limpers with 78s, flop J83 with one of your suite, you?

You hold TT and raised and are cold called on the button, flop AJ3, you bet he calls, turn 5 you bet he calls, river 2 and you?

vote in polls below, in respect to the questions above, i kind of stuffed up the polls but i aint changing them

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

Reads are pretty important for some of these.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

Q3 desperately needs reads, is this a TAG type, has he been stealing earlier, does he raise flush draws, what level is this 2/4 or higher where stealing is more common?

VS the correct type I would be inclined to call and donk-bet a blank turn. I voted fold on flop on this though without reads.

If he is a TAG he is probably raising AK KQ, KJ, AQ, and so on.
If a weak passive type is raising from the button I am also inclined to evaluate my hand strength as he seldom raises, this tho is a weaker tell than the TAG. A reraise on the flop from a weak passive type is a strong tell that you have been beaten.

At last is the tricky type that I would call down against just to avoid steals. I do think we are behind most here though.

Q4
 

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Villan limps and you raise AKs, flop J62r, he checks calls, turn is a Q, he checks, and you?


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Bet/fold is a common reply but it would be bad. You're getting 6.5:1 and have 4 outs to the nuts and 6 tainted pair outs. You only need 6 outs to call, I would say you at least 6.5 outs + implied odds.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You hold red JJ in the sb, button raises and you three bet, he calls, flop KT6 with two spades, you bet and are raised, you?

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my default play here is actually just to stop n go, as there are all manners of tens, pocket pairs, and flush draws that you are leading here.

since I was not given that option, I chose to threebet (where I would call a cap from anyone aggressive or tricky, and do a serious reeval on the turn)

the problem with calling and checking the turn here is that this flop raise in a steal situation is a freecard play far too often.

Make no mistake, its a total disaster for our hand if the turn gets checked though.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

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You complete in the small blind after two limpers with 78s, flop J83 with one of your suite, you?

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lots of people lead out here, but I think that may be wrong. I did not get the option to check and re-evaluate, but that tends to be my default play here as well.

if I check and the action goes

-bet,call,call, then I can just call along and look to pick up my draw on the turn.

-bet,fold,raise, (or any other combination of bets and raises) then I can just get the hell out

-check,check,bet, then I can raise and get HU with an ok HU hand

-bet,fold,fold, then I can either call or raise based on a read

-check,check,check, then I reeval on the turn. This is the worst case scenario, but its not as bad as in the JJ hand, since we are so much more vulnerable here, and because we also have a backdoor draw.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

-deleted because I misread the action-

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

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the problem with calling and checking the turn here is that this flop raise in a steal situation is a freecard play far too often.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder, have my opponent ever checked behind on the turn when I call his flop raise.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

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I wonder, have my opponent ever checked behind on the turn when I call his flop raise.

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I see it all the time, but I play shorthanded.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

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I wonder, have my opponent ever checked behind on the turn when I call his flop raise.

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I see it all the time, but I play shorthanded.

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Ok, I play full and in my experience it only happens very rarely.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

I'll make this play with spades as well. its the classic free card play, and you can see by the poll results just how much it freezes up you full ring guys. Shorthanded people are less likely to ever fold a good pair, so thats why I tend to just check through and spike a spade.

I'll reiterate how much of a disaster it is to get that turn checked through by a draw or a worse hand. don't let it happen man.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

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I'll reiterate how much of a disaster it is to get that turn checked through by a draw or a worse hand. don't let it happen man.

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Until my villain learns to check the turn I don't bother, but i can see your point and I guess I will adjust my play as I move up in limits.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

Bet/folding when he raises his draw again on the turn is a disaster.

Bet/calling a two outer is bigger mistake than offering a free card to a hand that has a lot of outs and will call a bet but will likely bet if checked to.

Check/calling when your opponent will bet most of the time anyway is not a disaster. It's perfectly fine when your hand is ahead enough to see a showdown but less than the majority of the time. Besides that, the opponenet will bet this turn most of the time with whatever he/she raised the flop with...including worse hands, draws, or better hands. People get stupidly aggressive in these situations and I'd much much rather take a line that gets me to showdown with JJ than a line that includes a fold.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

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Bet/folding when he raises his draw again on the turn is a disaster.

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agreed, but it takes a serious lag/maniac to do this. I'll adjust here when I get that read. Our line suggests that we like our hand, and raising here with a hand that we beat is reckless, since we'll threebet our monsters and showdown our ok hands.

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Bet/calling a two outer is bigger mistake than offering a free card to a hand that has a lot of outs and will call a bet but will likely bet if checked to.

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this confuses me. If we're sure enough that we only have two outs, then we should check/fold, not check/call. the one place where the turn checking through could help us would never occur, because all bigger pairs have to bet here.

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Check/calling when your opponent will bet most of the time anyway is not a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]It is when he's skimmed a poker book that explains the free card play. [ QUOTE ]
It's perfectly fine when your hand is ahead enough to see a showdown but less than the majority of the time. Besides that, the opponenet will bet this turn most of the time with whatever he/she raised the flop with...including worse hands, draws, or better hands.

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while its true that draw will sometimes bet here, we don't want to give them the option. Since our line already suggests that we've minimally paired up, any two spades paying attention will take a free look at the river. Most spades here don't raise. It's too expensive of a bluff, especially when they have odds to draw and can just pop us on the river when they hit.

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People get stupidly aggressive in these situations and I'd much much rather take a line that gets me to showdown with JJ than a line that includes a fold.

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I disagree. If we check/call the turn and river a few things happen:

1)it loses us 2bb to showdown when we're behind (usually hopelessly behind)
2)it wins us 1 bb when villain is both behind and willing to bluff the turn and fold the river UI
3)it wins us 0 bb when villain checks behind and fold the river UI.
3)it gives a spade draw exactly what he was looking for - a free card. If villain checks the turn and a spade falls on the river, what's your line?

by bet/folding here though, our line becomes more stable.

1)it loses us 1 bb when we're hopelessly behind
2)it wins us 1 bb when villain has a draw and does not improve on the river
3)it denies trailing hands the chance at a free card
4)it can win 2 or 3 bb when we improve, or when villain has a weaker pp.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

I'll also add this:

if our villain is aggressive, then I'd take the bet/call check/call line here. I don't mind letting aggros raise thier paired tens on the turn, and this wins me more than when I just check/call.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

The stop and go just screams...I like my hand...a little...please don't raise.

That's why it's a good line with a big hand but a pretty lousy line with a hand you can't even call a raise with but is definitely worth showing down.

But the big thing here is a draw doesn't "sometimes" bet. A draw usually bets here if he's aggressive enough to raise the flop with it. Shorthanded, full or whatever...this turn doesn't get checked through as often as you seem to think.

As far as the bet/call I was just comparing the three options since I wasn't sure how you were handling the raise. I wasn't saying you should call if you bet and are raised. I was just pointing out that a fraction of a BB mistake isn't a "disaster" and that your line is what opens you up to a much worse mistake.

Besides that...you seem to just be assuming your opponent either has a good draw here or better hand and assuming that your opponent will never raise the turn if you're ahead. Neither is true. Also, your thoughts on win/losses and equity are off. You don't lose 2 BB when you call down. Your hand is good sometimes or you wouldn't call down. You don't win 1 BB when your opponent is on a draw. You win a fraction of a BB and considering that your opponent will bet that draw when checked to quite a bit it's a small fraction.

Re: End of year review. Some common situations.
 

this could devolve into semantics pretty quickly here, so I'll try to avoid that. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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The stop and go just screams...I like my hand...a little...please don't raise.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't know if it screams that per se, but I'll certainly concede that it implies this. regardless, it will still be difficult to raise with many hands that we beat, because the further implication is that we're showing down. I'm not trying to outsmart my opponent, I'm trying to rob him.

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But the big thing here is a draw doesn't "sometimes" bet. A draw usually bets here if he's aggressive enough to raise the flop with it. Shorthanded, full or whatever...this turn doesn't get checked through as often as you seem to think.

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I still disagree, but we'll just have to leave it at that.

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you seem to just be assuming your opponent either has a good draw here or better hand and assuming that your opponent will never raise the turn if you're ahead. Neither is true.

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Not really, and I'm sorry if I've made it sound that way. We really have very little evidence of villain's hand by the time the turn comes around if we just call there. He could easily have a ten, a flush draw, a hand like AQ, a king, a big pair, or even two pair.

I think the flop play is close between threebetting or calling, depending on how loose or aggressive the villain is. The flop play also sets up the turn play. If we call, leading locks in a bet when we're ahead, and gives us a way out if we're behind. I'm not saying its an auto bet/fold on the turn if we take that line, but I think its a decent option.

I also agree that we want to get to showdown often here.

I don't agree that we have to get to showdown 100% of the time here.

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Also, your thoughts on win/losses and equity are off. You don't lose 2 BB when you call down. Your hand is good sometimes or you wouldn't call down.

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I didn't say that, and didn't mean to imply it. I thought I was clear when I said we lose 2 bb when we call with two outs. If I was confusing there, I aplogize.

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You don't win 1 BB when your opponent is on a draw. You win a fraction of a BB and considering that your opponent will bet that draw when checked to quite a bit it's a small fraction.

[/ QUOTE ] I thought I properly qualified that with river contingencies as well, but again I aplogize if you took my comments to mean that you win 1 bb when he's drawing.

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for the most part, we're either way ahead of a ten, way behind a king, or somewhere in the middle with the flush draw.

I think the real question is, will the villain bluff raise a draw on the turn when we lead more often then he'll take the free card when we check?

The answer to that probably swings this one way or the other.