How\'s My Line
 

I don't have any numbers on villain and while I still would group him as an "unknown" at the time I played this hand, I was begining to think, based on a few orbits, that he was likely a decent to good TAG.

How is this line?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

I think I should probably be betting this river but I also didn't think I had a good enough read to bet-fold and wanted to get to showdown against an opponent on whom I did not yet have a solid read.

Thoughts?

Re: How\'s My Line
 

Seems standard to me. 9BB going into the river. It's unlikely for him to raise with a worse hand, other than a bluff, which is probably also unlikely for an unknown. However it's a big pot, I just don't like b/f, but I don't have good reasons, just intuition, feels wrong. I don't really like b/c either. So I check/call. Hope he bluffs the river w/ a busted draw or has 88.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

Bump for the morning crowd.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

I'm interested in your leading into him on the flop. How often do you think he'll raise an AK-type hand here?

Re: How\'s My Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested in your leading into him on the flop. How often do you think he'll raise an AK-type hand here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't he have to lead this flop, since he may have the best hand?
I could see an opponent raising 88, two high spades, or higher PPs &amp; sets.
As for just raising AK. It's possible, It might even be a good play.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested in your leading into him on the flop. How often do you think he'll raise an AK-type hand here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't he have to lead this flop, since he may have the best hand?
I could see an opponent raising 88, two high spades, or higher PPs &amp; sets.
As for just raising AK. It's possible, It might even be a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an ongoing topic of debate that I've seen across many boards, and it seems that the core of the argument is if Villain will raise with a worse hand, or if he will just charge you 2 bets when you're drawing and call when you're ahead. A good recent discussion can be found here in MHSH.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

Flop play is good - by betting you ensured it was 2 bets to the SB, who then can't call with a draw.

The way you played the turn/river, I think you've lost 2 bets by calling down because he shouldn't be betting the river with anything you will beat. If you were indeed ahead, he would have checked the river and you'd win only 1 bet. Therefore, after the turn, your line results in winning 1 bet when you're ahead or losing 2 bets when you're beat.

Turn and river, you should bet/fold and bet. If you get raised again on the turn, you are beat, and you will lose 1 bet. However if he calls, he's probably got overcards and you will win at least one bet, and maybe two bets if he calls the river w AK, AQ, 88, 66, etc. So this way, you lose 1 bet when you're beat and you win 1-2 bets when you are ahead.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

nice link. there are a few difference btwn the hands. In colgin's hand, the pot is a lot bigger, and it's a lot more drawier. Also SB CC'ed 2 PFRs, so he likely has a better hand, the same goes for the PFRRer.

This is a dangerous flop, and although anyone w/ a draw isn't leaving, I think it's worth trying to knock out SB by betting. Then I think it's SOP to call down if Btn raised. The rewards for knocking out SB are worthwhile. We could very well be increasing our own chances even though we're not a favorite.

I still don't see how I could play the turn or river differently.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is an ongoing topic of debate that I've seen across many boards, and it seems that the core of the argument is if Villain will raise with a worse hand, or if he will just charge you 2 bets when you're drawing and call when you're ahead. A good recent discussion can be found here in MHSH.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the discussion you refer to, but I think whether you lead into a PFR depends on the size of the pot. I usually don't like it, because you are usually only getting raised by a better hand (when we are talking about a field of 3 or 4) and charging yourself to draw, like you say. But when the pot gets large enough, and you are in a field of 3+, if you know the PFR will only raise with an overpair, it becomes beneficial to bet into him. First, there is always the chance that the PFR still has overs and won't bet, possibly costing you a free card. Secondly, and I think more importantly, pushing out the other people in a large pot becomes more important because it will increase your equity a fair amount since you are increasing your chances of winning if you improve.

I think with a flop like this, leading into the PFRer is even better because there is still a fair amount of hands the PF 3-bettor will raise with that you beat, AK maybe, AKs-AJs, KQs, KJs, KQo. So that coupled with trying to push the other player out makes it a good flop bet.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
First, there is always the chance that the PFR still has overs and won't bet, possibly costing you a free card.

[/ QUOTE ] I doubt this will happen. He 3-bet PF. Unless you have a read, it's nearly always autobet on the flop.

I pretty much agree w/ everything else u said.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt this will happen. He 3-bet PF. Unless you have a read, it's nearly always autobet on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

In a situation like this, you are probably right. However, if the pot is 4-5 handed, I think there is a larger chance of a check if the player is a decent TAG.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn and river, you should bet/fold and bet. If you get raised again on the turn, you are beat, and you will lose 1 bet.

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Can I really just bet-fold the turn? I agree that if I get raised I am almost certainly behind but, in that case, I quite likely have 5 clean outs and will be getting 10:1 to call the raise.

RESULTS
 

Thanks for all of the good input.

Button had JJ and MHING.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Turn and river, you should bet/fold and bet. If you get raised again on the turn, you are beat, and you will lose 1 bet.

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Can I really just bet-fold the turn? I agree that if I get raised I am almost certainly behind but, in that case, I quite likely have 5 clean outs and will be getting 10:1 to call the raise.

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A ton of people seem to disagree but I believe my explanation makes total sense. You are right about the 5 clean outs; however, I believe you get only 8-1 (not 10-1) to call the raise, and you need 8.2-1 to justify a call. Furthermore, if you bet/call the turn, you will trap yourself for another bet on the river when you miss: don't kid yourself - you will definitely call the river for 10-1 odds with your middle pair, even though you decided you were beat on the turn. So therefore you aren't risking a single bet for those 5 outs, you are really risking two which makes the draw quite unprofitable. It is important to think a street ahead with these kinds of tough turn decisions.

Re: How\'s My Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can I really just bet-fold the turn? I agree that if I get raised I am almost certainly behind but, in that case, I quite likely have 5 clean outs and will be getting 10:1 to call the raise.

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I think its probably pretty close. You are getting 10:1, but if you think villian is tight and is only raising the turn if he has you beat then you probably have about 4 clean outs, which makes it close. AA, TT, and 99 are all strong possibilities which hurt things a bit (Throwing in ATs would make things worse). Now, if you think he still could do this with some worse hands like AsKs, or KsQs, then you are going to also have to call the river when you don't improve, so you are always putting in 2BB unless a river spade drops.

I know you're TAG read came later, but if you would've had it before, are you calling the river?

Re: How\'s My Line
 

To me this hand is very close between calling all the way down and calling until the river, then check/folding.

It all depends on how likely you think villain will check behind with KQ and big aces on the river unimproved, and how badly you want to get to a showdown against this guy ( you might be still developing a read or been bullied a bit by this guy, etc).

If you think this guy is a decent player and you might be playing here for a while, my personal choice is to start off with some thin calldowns and then readjust my read, possibly leading me to make somewhat tough laydowns as the session goes on.

Luke