I get one right?
 

Every time I think I played a hand well I post it and find out otherwise. I therefore come to you all again. This one felt very right so let's see.

Villian in this hand is a multitabling TAG. He is like 26/16/2 and almost certainly one of you guys. The BB is also TAGish but I have fewer hands on him.


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.


comments? I'll share the river later. Maybe this is simple?

Re: I get one right?
 

What are you doing checking the turn? I don't agree with that at all. You will get calls from many pocket pairs and are only behind to the case 2 or AA. Why didn't you bet?

Re: I get one right?
 

He's trying to get a bet out of air that would fold to a bet on the turn.

I still bet the turn though, this could easily be a pp you're losing value from. Plus I'll bet this turn with k-high sometimes given the action, so I feel I need to bet it with the ace too~

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing checking the turn? I don't agree with that at all. You will get calls from many pocket pairs and are only behind to the case 2 or AA. Why didn't you bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

See. It is starting already. This guy is a good player. He knows that I know he is a good player. You don't think he finds a fold with 66 here?

Re: I get one right?
 

I would check turn as well had there not been a three bet preflop. I'm pretty sure he's calling down pps here and I'll take 2 bets over one any day!

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think he finds a fold with 66 here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks to me more like he'll call down but doesnt want to get raised.

Re: I get one right?
 

I don't play at that high a level, but I'd tend to bet the flop.

And, I'd definitely bet the turn because you are ahead of most hands here.

Doc

Re: I get one right?
 

misplayed on every street [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


I actually quit raising A anthing from the CO 6 handed, but thats just cuz I suck with them postflop.


I like the turn, but I think betting may be better, he will call you down with any PP, and there is only 1 combo of AA to fear. I think hes less likely to have a KJ type hand than normal since he 3 bet your CO steal, not button steal. But I think it all hinges on how he would actually play a PP, if he would bet the turn with it, then I check

Re: I get one right?
 

Alobar-You quit raising all AX from CO, I don't understand that reasoning. Care to explain?

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing checking the turn? I don't agree with that at all. You will get calls from many pocket pairs and are only behind to the case 2 or AA. Why didn't you bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

See. It is starting already. This guy is a good player. He knows that I know he is a good player. You don't think he finds a fold with 66 here?

[/ QUOTE ]

will he call the river with it tho, when another overcard falls and you bet? you are also giving him a free card to a 3 outter (yeah I know, not much, but still).

if hes going to give up, you might as well make him fold now. The reason I would like it is if he has KJ or something, that way he can catch on the river

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alobar-You quit raising all AX from CO, I don't understand that reasoning. Care to explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

cuz im a nit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I used to raise A6o or higher from the CO 6 handed, but then I started loosening up and raised any A from the CO, and I was showing a loss so I went back to my old tight ways.

Re: I get one right?
 

So poster, what ended up happening?

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alobar-You quit raising all AX from CO, I don't understand that reasoning. Care to explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

the 'standard' is a5o and better, but obviously that changes on how your button and blinds play. I'm pretty sure he means A-low~

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I actually quit raising A anthing from the CO 6 handed, but thats just cuz I suck with them postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

My ATSB just cried out in agony [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: I get one right?
 

What kings do you raise from CO? I usually do k9 and up. Standard?

Re: I get one right?
 

I like it.

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So poster, what ended up happening?

[/ QUOTE ]

Patience grasshopper.

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
misplayed on every street [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


I actually quit raising A anthing from the CO 6 handed, but thats just cuz I suck with them postflop.


I like the turn, but I think betting may be better, he will call you down with any PP, and there is only 1 combo of AA to fear. I think hes less likely to have a KJ type hand than normal since he 3 bet your CO steal, not button steal. But I think it all hinges on how he would actually play a PP, if he would bet the turn with it, then I check

[/ QUOTE ]

The converter messed up. It was actually 5 handed. Not that that matters much.

Re: I get one right?
 

WTF is a grasshopper?

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would check turn as well had there not been a three bet preflop. I'm pretty sure he's calling down pps here and I'll take 2 bets over one any day!

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you predict will happen on the river if a blank falls. Do you think he value bets a pair?

Re: I get one right?
 

I think he's checkcalling without an ace. Only way he's betting is if he hits his two outer for a higher full house.

Re: I get one right?
 

Whoa, I Would bet the turn for sure. A lot of guys with TAG stats in this game play v. badly. He will often pay you off with a lower pocket pair and just doesn't want to get raised and put to a tough decision. If he has KJ, checking is only going to help you if he pairs up on the river. THere is more value in getting him to call you down with a lower pocket pair.

I guess there's an argument that he has 66 or the like and will check/fold the turn but would check/call the river if you checked the turn. But if he's good and he knows you're good he probably should check/fold the river even if you check the turn.

If you know he would never check a lower pocket pair here on the turn, intending to call, then by all means check it. If he doesn't know you're a good TAG, and instead for some reason thinks you're an aggro lag (not that unlikely), I could see him checking to get to showdown cheap.

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing checking the turn? I don't agree with that at all. You will get calls from many pocket pairs and are only behind to the case 2 or AA. Why didn't you bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

See. It is starting already. This guy is a good player. He knows that I know he is a good player. You don't think he finds a fold with 66 here?

[/ QUOTE ]

will he call the river with it tho, when another overcard falls and you bet? you are also giving him a free card to a 3 outter (yeah I know, not much, but still).

if hes going to give up, you might as well make him fold now. The reason I would like it is if he has KJ or something, that way he can catch on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

This is getting to what I was trying to do. Just a couple of points and questions though. Lets assume he is thinking a bit about my hand. When he 3 bets preflop and leads an A22 flop what can I hold to just call? Should I peel that flop with 2 broadway cards and no Ace? Will he call the turn and river both with a hand like 55-TT?

How did you come up with 3 outs? I think he has 2 outs almost always (the 4th duece will not be an out for him because then I will have the stone nuts with my Ace right?) and is drawing to perfect/perfect the rest of the time with KQ,KJ mamybe QJs type of hands.

I think he will call my river bet with K high a lot and if he is unfortunate enough to catch a pair to his broadway card he will almost always lose 2 more bets when he value bets and pays off my raise.

Preflop is not standard for me either. I mix it up from the CO and usually prefer a better kicker but this game had some thinkers in it so I was trying to mix things up a bit pre and postflop.

BTW, this specific turn card changed the hand a bit but I was planning on checking any turn card.

Re: I get one right?
 

You might as well bet. He's probably got a worse hand whether it's a pair or K-high and has decided either he's going to pay off one bet on either the turn or river but if you bet both then fold the river, or that he's going to call down. As you don't know which, just bet and hope it's the latter so you can collect 2 bets instead of one.

I don't think it's worth checking the turn to induce a river call as I doubt you're going to collect a call on the river from a hand that would have folded if you'd bet the turn very often at all because he's going to be suspicious and expect you to bet the turn a lot of the time so he's unlikely to just check-fold it.

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing checking the turn? I don't agree with that at all. You will get calls from many pocket pairs and are only behind to the case 2 or AA. Why didn't you bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

See. It is starting already. This guy is a good player. He knows that I know he is a good player. You don't think he finds a fold with 66 here?

[/ QUOTE ]

will he call the river with it tho, when another overcard falls and you bet? you are also giving him a free card to a 3 outter (yeah I know, not much, but still).

if hes going to give up, you might as well make him fold now. The reason I would like it is if he has KJ or something, that way he can catch on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

This is getting to what I was trying to do. Just a couple of points and questions though. Lets assume he is thinking a bit about my hand. When he 3 bets preflop and leads an A22 flop what can I hold to just call? Should I peel that flop with 2 broadway cards and no Ace? Will he call the turn and river both with a hand like 55-TT?

How did you come up with 3 outs? I think he has 2 outs almost always (the 4th duece will not be an out for him because then I will have the stone nuts with my Ace right?) and is drawing to perfect/perfect the rest of the time with KQ,KJ mamybe QJs type of hands.

I think he will call my river bet with K high a lot and if he is unfortunate enough to catch a pair to his broadway card he will almost always lose 2 more bets when he value bets and pays off my raise.

Preflop is not standard for me either. I mix it up from the CO and usually prefer a better kicker but this game had some thinkers in it so I was trying to mix things up a bit pre and postflop.

BTW, this specific turn card changed the hand a bit but I was planning on checking any turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

well his 3rd out (the 2) is to a split pot, youd both have 2222A.

I think a lot of it comes down to how he plays a PP on the turn. Is he giving up because you called an A22 flop, or is he intending to call down, and is just checking out of fear? Also, would he even check this smae pocket pair? He could easily have TT and doesnt want to face a raise, and knows you are aggresive and will bet your 55 when he checks to you. Also, given his hand range, what is more likely, a PP or KQ/J type hand? Hes not going to catch his 6 outter that often, so I think there is more value in getting 2 bets out of a PP that calls down, than out of 1 when he catches or decides to pay off with K high (is that even likely tho?)

and then to river raise if he bets. I dont like it. You have him pegged as a good player, he should be smart enough not to call your river raise with 66, as its pretty obvious what you did. It also really backfires when he 3 bets you because he was trying to outhtink you on the turn with AA, or caught his 2 outter on the river. It might be worth it if it was a K, as then he would definately call with his K hands hoping for a split, but I think on most rivers im just callhing his ber, and I wouldnt lead a K river if I was him, even if I hit it

Re: I get one right?
 

one more thing. I think a lot of TAGs in this game are very fearful of being exploited here by another tag who calls the flop without an ace looking to knock hero off of his pocket pair. TAGs know and fear this, and thus I think it is pretty rare that one folds a pocket pair here.

Re: I get one right?
 

I like the check. If he is good you will have a hard time getting a bet either way, but more chance this way. I'm shocked so many decent players in this thread would call down with any pocket pair here. If you have KQ for example that's about the worst flop in the world for you and peeling would be pretty dumb.

-DeathDonkey

Re: I get one right?
 

if you could peel one sb with KQ, knowing that your tag opponent will fold any pocket pair, wouldn't it be worth it? I'm not saying it's correct to peel this flop, but this is something to think about. Checkraising the turn with big aces can counter this. I have a strong suspicion, however, that a lot of TAGs in this game feel they must call down to counter it.

Re: I get one right?
 

PF raise is too loose and i hate that turn check in this game... i am positive he is calling u down w/ JJ, you are missing out on free money here.

Re: I get one right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you could peel one sb with KQ, knowing that your tag opponent will fold any pocket pair, wouldn't it be worth it? I'm not saying it's correct to peel this flop, but this is something to think about. Checkraising the turn with big aces can counter this. I have a strong suspicion, however, that a lot of TAGs in this game feel they must call down to counter it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a big Ace and the turn does not put 3 on board wouldn't you agree that a CR is by far and away his best play?

Re: I get one right?
 

no, i would bet the turn and checkraise the river

River/Results
 

Here is how the final action came down. My play is obvious but how about the villian's play? I do think that his river curiousity call is pretty common. As Lmn55d stated, these TAGs are overly worried about being outplayed and therefore payoff a lot. With that mentality it may not matter much as I am getting 2 bets from hom either way.

I am wondering how most of us would play his hand here too.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results below:
SB has 9c 9h (full house, twos full of nines).
BB doesn't show.
Hero has Ah 4s (full house, twos full of aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.50 BB.

Re: I get one right?
 

I realize I'm late to the game on this one, but I prefer to fold preflop and I think it's a DEFINITE turn bet since pretty much any pocket pair is calling a turn and river bet and the preflop 3 bet often means a pocket pair.

Re: River/Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
River: (4.50 BB) 8 (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the difference is that in your line, you got the same number of bets but you gave him a free chance to win, especially since he may have check/called or bet/folded on a card above 9.

I think that anyone who bet/calls the river is also ready to call down the turn and river.

The real question here is if we get 1 by only betting the river often enough from the people who would fold to compensate for the times we get 2 from those who call down.

If the number of people who will give us 2 bets &gt;50% of the people who gives us 1 at the end, then it's better to bet the turn (negating the times we get 2 on the river like this because these people will also call the turn).

Keep in mind that anyone who will give us 2 bets will also give us at least 1 bet on the river 100% of the time. If 1 in 2 players are calling both streets:

If we check the turn and bet the river, we get 1 bet 100% of the time (again, ignoring those that don't ever give us action)

If we bet the turn and river, we get 2 bets 50% of the time.

The EV is neutral, but betting the turn is higher variance. With no evidence to back me up, I'm going to think that &gt;50% of your opponents who will call the river will fold the turn. Kx, yy, and ab that improves on the river will often call the river many of which would fold the turn.

I'd like to think that the times we get a bet/caller on the river are rare enough that we can use this factor to negate the chance someone two outs you.

I like your line.

Re: I get one right?
 

heh, ever since you made this post people have been doing this to me on abso. see what you've started?~

Re: I get one right?
 

I'd play it the same as the OP &lt;3