JJ, opening hand
 

First hand, everyone is unknown to me.

Blinds are 10/15.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button (t800)
SB (t800)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 (t800)</font>
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t800)</font>

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t175</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t145, MP3 calls t145.

Flop: (t577.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, MP1 calls t150, MP3 folds.

Turn: (t877.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (t877.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t175</font>, Hero calls t175.

Final Pot: t1227.50
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: t1227.50 (t1227.50), between MP1 and Hero.</font>

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

I think that was well played. I might have checked the flop and then bet if checked to on the turn. I call the river too.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

What buy in?

I don't play JJ this aggressively preflop ten handed. Personally I'd call the 30, and see a flop. (If I do raise, it's no more than 3x the min raise). Putting in 1/4 of your stack makes the pot so big, any continuation bet is crippling/committing. I think this early, my line is call the minraise. Fold to a raise on this flop, if the flop checks to me I'll lead out half pot. If I get callers/cr'ers I'm done with the hand.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

Pre-Flop
looks good (to me)

Flop
Maybe make the bet t200 on the flop? (about 1/3)

Turn
This is a constant situation for me on the turn. Best
thing to do is recap what has gone down so far. He called
a min raise pre-flop, then called your 145 reraise. He
likes what he sees, but perhaps he sees no value in
raising it himself? A-x suited? KJ+? Low pocket pair? Was
he trying to trap with that flop check? With all that
said, I would put in a bet of about t300. Otherwise
you're gonna have to make a tough decision on the ...

River
Now that we're here, what the hell do we do? Close your
eyes and call with 6:1 odds, is what. Sigh ...

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

It was a $10 buy-in.

One thing I'm not too sure about at this point, (but something I'm trying to get better at), is how much to bet and raise relative to the size of the pot and the size of my stack.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

At the 11's, it's a little bit trickier, because you'll have this many limpers. Obviously any starting hand you have is devalued with 5 people in the pot, so you're thinking you have to raise this much to isolate one, hopefully no more than two. The problem with this is that at this level, 90% of the players (or more) don't understand or play optimally late, or on the bubble. You have a tremendous advantage just being at the table late, so why do you risk so much in the first level? If you just call this minraise, you'll stack your opponents many times if you hit a set w/ overcards on the board, and when the flop comes rags, TPTK will come in w/ you. Minimize risk and maximze reward. As far as betting goes relative to pot and your stack size, there's not a standard formula (I'm aware of), but it's something you need to be conscious of at all times. What are your goals in raising, and how much will be required to do so (isolating, etc.)? How much will you have to commit for a continuation here? How vulnerable is your hand? If you're going to raise more than 40% of your stack, push. Do you have a significant advantage if you don't risk so much here? These are all questions I try to think about if I'm going to make a substantial raise early.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

Preflop - you made a very big raise and got two callers. Unless they're both morons (which is possible at this buy-in), one of them has an ace or higher pair. I think you could have gained the same info by raising to $100 or so.

Flop - you bet 1/4 of the pot. This bet really didn't gain you any information about MP1s hand. You don't know whether he has an ace, a pocket pair or a flush draw. The problem is, if you bet more than 1/2 the pot, you've committed 1/2 your stack on this hand. I think you should either check or go all-in. I don't really like risking everything this early, with your hand and this flop, so I would probably check. If the turn was bet, I would probably fold. If the turn was checked and river was bet, I would call up to about 150.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

I limp along preflop and I'm done with this hand on the flop in an 11. Why do you want to give your chips to the guy with A4o?

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

Because he might have 66?

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

I limp with jacks or lower in lvl 1 or 2. That is assuming this is an $11 or $22.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

I don't like the preflop reraise. Since you're going to have approximately the same amount of equity whether you raise or call, I think it's pretty clear that you shouldn't VP$IP more chips in, to reduce variance. In higher buy-ins, you can use "PFR-deception" to your advantage, but at the 11's it's overrated, especially with a hand like JJ.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I limp with jacks or lower in lvl 1 or 2. That is assuming this is an $11 or $22.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can this be right?

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

at these levels you see a ton of people calling big raises preflop with ace-x. After the flop I would make a smallish sized bet and if called I would not make another stab, if reraised I would fold personally.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

At the $10 level, if you play this hand 100 times, and the flop has an ace in it, you're going to be looking at AT LEAST A-x about 90 times - they just won't toss a hand with any ace in it - they'll go all-in with A-x a lot, so calling a $150 raise is not gonna stop them. Add in the callers with 8-8, 2-2, and any two diamonds - your only out is a J.
I just limp in, and no set no bet it.......keeps me from punching my monitor out. I bet JJ is way high on the list for money losing hands, especially in the 10/20 buy ins.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

I hate your name.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
At the $10 level, if you play this hand 100 times, and the flop has an ace in it, you're going to be looking at AT LEAST A-x about 90 times - they just won't toss a hand with any ace in it - they'll go all-in with A-x a lot, so calling a $150 raise is not gonna stop them. Add in the callers with 8-8, 2-2, and any two diamonds - your only out is a J.
I just limp in, and no set no bet it.......keeps me from punching my monitor out. I bet JJ is way high on the list for money losing hands, especially in the 10/20 buy ins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't I want them to call this raise w/ Ax though?

I understand not being pumped about an Ace high flop, I just don't understand the limping in part.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

You should limp if you have subpar poker skills. Otherwise you should raise.

The only problem on the river though is that you don't know if he was going for a check-raise on the turn or not. However when you check behind it means he could have a good hand or a total bluff, so a call is mandatory.

Well played imo.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

My typical play by far is to flat call

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

My typical play by far is to flat call

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this consider that OP tells us throughout the thread that this is an 11? Would you not re-raise with more than your typical re-raise hands when facing a min-raiser and a couple of callers...like, to thin out the garbage that people will minraise with/call minraises with?

Or does your standard flat call deal more specifically with the higher buyins?

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

Oh I didnt see the buyin. Ummm....In a $33 Id flat call, an $11 is trickier, they are just a bit too stupid for me to play so weakly. I might reraise a bit more though. Im not sure about the flop bet into 3 morons on an ace high flop.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

No, I'm not down with the flop bet either...but at this point my standard play (which I'm open to changing) would be raising to 200-225...and I play primarily at the 22's. Having played the 11's not all that long ago, and having played the 22's for quite a while now (it's really time for me to move up but I'm a wuss), I can say with some confidence that the stupidity at the 22's is not MUCH less than at the 11's. I've heard 33 is where the average player does take a decent step up, so maybe that is the touchstone level at which it becomes prudent to play a bit more cautiously in this spot.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

Level 1, after a mini-raise, two callers, and three to act after me, I'm usually just calling with JJ and seeing a flop. This is for two reasons:

1) At a 33 or below, I'm confident that I can outplay these guys, especially at bubble time.

2) Especially on an 11, I don't really feel like popping it, only to have UTG push. I try to avoid tricky decisions for all my chips, especially when I can wait for an easier spot later.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

btw I agree that calling might be the right play even in a $11. I dunno, the edge you get on the bubble time is so huge and flat calling PF is still clear +ev but with much less variance involved.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

Flop - No problem with the raise; at a $55 and under you're getting tons of value from dominated hands - frankly I don't see how the dynamic is changed all that much if you had QQ or KK here either, in which case you surely can't flat call his stupid minraise. You're in position with a huge pot which dwarfs your stack, and that won't change.

As far as the T150 bet goes, you accomplish nada. Due to the pot size, anything is coming along including Ax, flush draws, mid pair, and KQ for that matter if it's a Party $11. Yes, the flush ace is on the board, but would you protect AK if you had it here with a T150 bet?

Now the turn becomes complicated - he's expecting you to bet so his check carries less meaning than if you checked through the flop. Had you checked the flop and were checked to on the turn, I would have shoved. If he's "slowplaying" Ax through two streets and that draw heavy turn, wish him good luck with the rest of your 600 chips cause he'll need it.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw I agree that calling might be the right play even in a $11. I dunno, the edge you get on the bubble time is so huge and flat calling PF is still clear +ev but with much less variance involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you flat call the flop in this spot, are you simply playing for a flop w/no overcards or a set? Is that where your +EV is? With so many callers, can you put more money into the pot when an overcard hits? Aren't you effectively saying that you'll surrender the hand if an overcard hits when you play JJ against so many people?

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

I dunno, most of the time yea I guess.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

I don't really like the monstrous pfr followed by the weak flop bet. I'd have made it 90 to discourage anyone calling who had position on you, and that leaves you with a pot small enough to have more options to play it, with position. Post flop, I'd probably make it T275 so that his stack is clearly at stake. If I get a call then, I'd say I'm done with the hand unless I spike a miracle J.

Re: JJ, opening hand
 

Cold calling preflop for 30 or limping JJ is too weak- tight. I like your line. vnh.

-EV