Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

SSHE and Getting Started in Hold'em are the books I'm mainly reading now. Some situations like playing from the blinds, Ed says you can play a number of not usual starting hands IF you play well after the flop. I know this is a complex subject and may or does involve counting outs to draws and deciding when you have enough to take one off, as he says, and continue on. Pot size he emphasizes is all important to be aware of and sometimes I get "tied to the pot" because it's large (just raised pre-flop is enough, he states) and have trouble folding when it looks unfavorable for me even though the pot is big.
I have poker tracker and 107,000 hands in 10 months. I started play money (3weeks) and then went right to .25/50 at Pokerstars but feared losing my bankroll on the downswings--my ego or psychology or confidence still gets shaken when I have those swings--I would like to be a little more detached about the outcomes of my playing and just play to learn and get experience but I get pretty excited about the wins.
So to protect my bankroll I have been playing .05/.10 tables--usually 4 or three depending on what I can handle or how tired I am. I went to .10/.20 when Stars started that recently and it was easier to make the jump to .25 from .05 that way.
I must have leaks because my play is so inconsistent--I'm a solid winner many times but cancel that out with bad or poor play on other tables simultaneously. Maybe some of my problem is patience with the selection of good preflop starting hands, controlling my tilt when I make mistakes that I should know better not to make (mainly involves confidence in myself and my play), and I'm confused about folding--Ed Miller said in a recent post I read that 2+2'ers fold too much and that actually helped my game tremendously so what are some points that relate to playing well after the flop that when I see that phrase I'd know what to work on next?
Thanks.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

One of the key components of "playing well after the flop" is learning to use the "Enter" key to break up long tracks of text into easy-to-read sentences and paragraphs.

Hope this helps.

Edit: so to show that I'm not a total jerk, I looked over your post again. I see that you mention patience with starting hands as being a problem.

I think that you should focus on fixing this first, as good post flop play won't help you all that much if you're spewing chips before the flop.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

Here's my take on it. I play crappy 90% of the time, and the other 10% consists of brief runs of inspired play. Of the 90%, I catch enough lucky cards that I maintain, and the other 10% gets me to a little better than breakeven. I think many people are this way, and I think the more you play, the larger the percentage of your play is correct.

As for specific post-flop play, I'll paraphrase Ed Miller in order to give my opinion on one specific item. He maintains that when in doubt (in small stakes games), it's usually better to assume that your opponent is loose rather than tight, thereby making a call or a raise preferable to folding in many situations with no reads, such as a new table.

Now, I suck in the worst way compared to this guy, but I've found that I do better early by waiting to hit a flop before I wade into a betting contest with an unknown. All things being equal, I'm not going to assume he has marginal holdings unless I get reads later on that allow me to take that position. In my brief experience, this has helped me save some bets.

(This does NOT apply nearly so well in short handed games. I'm speaking of full ring games, and you have to take position into consideration.)

I may (and probably will) change my mind on this down the road, but for now I think I'm right enough to make this position +EV.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

'Playing well after the flop' varies tremendously depending on the stakes you're playing (which determines the types of opponents and usually # of people post-flop).

At your level, playing well after the flop is mainly a mathematical exercise. Bet/raise with the best of it (or if you have proper return) and call if you have proper odds and fold if you don't. Hand reading is important even at this level, but since most your pots are probably multi-way, you can generally assume that someone betting or calling have a reasonable hand and play accordingly.

At higher levels, the mathematical part of it can become almost irrelevant and the psychology becomes paramount.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

You've played 100k hands of .1/.20?

-SmileyEH

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

100k total up to .50/1.00

94k at .05/.10

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

Yes,the mathematical part probably needs to be more automatic.

People actually play pretty straightforward at his low level but I expect bluffs around every corner and most of the time people have the goods when I call a suspected bluff when I feel I'm behind.

I skip around and play new tables constantly, and yes, without a read on specific players I assume many are playing pretty loose.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

Thanks. I see what you mean--it's hard to even re-read my own post--and I knew that, too--but I wasn't thinking..

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

If you're learning to play post-flop, try cutting down on the number of tables you're playing at. It helps you concentrate the game more.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

[ QUOTE ]
100k total up to .50/1.00

94k at .05/.10

[/ QUOTE ]
Move up.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe some of my problem is patience with the selection of good preflop starting hands

[/ QUOTE ]


so does this mean your VP is high?


[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller said in a recent post I read that 2+2'ers fold too much

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This may or may not include you.
not sure if your problems are the same as 'most 2+2'ers'.
Obviously, you shouldn't take this to mean that you should just be liberally chasing to the river with anything.
His point (I think) was that there is a certain group of 2+2'ers who are all proud of their 'good folds' when they think they are beat....when, in fact, they should be betting or calling it down because of pot-odds.



[ QUOTE ]
what are some points that relate to playing well after the flop that when I see that phrase I'd know what to work on next?

[/ QUOTE ]


for the games you are playing in it's pretty much all contained in SSHE.
read and re-read.
POst hands that where the decision is a bit uncertain to you over in the micro strategy forum.

If you don't think you are playing well and believe you are prone to tilt you may want to consider playing fewer tables.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

[ QUOTE ]
100k total up to .50/1.00

94k at .05/.10

[/ QUOTE ]

Good Lord!! Why?!?

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

I've played so many hands at the .05/.10 level because:

1) I take the game too seriously--winning and losing real $--never thought there would be such a good thing you could do from your own bedroom!

2) I thought if I mastered this beginning level my confidence would be strong so that when I moved up, the mistakes wouldn't be so devastating to my (ego) when I did make "I should know better by now" errors.

I knew how easy it was to go back down to .05/.10 so I figured I could learn the game better there without so much "pressure".

But now I think you've blown my cover. You're right, I need to learn with better players--it's like you'd never go back to play money to learn more after you've reached the basic real money levels.

I know how well I usually play when I concentrate on the game so I'm moving up and staying there to prove (to myself) that I really do know what I know I know.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I know how well I usually play when I concentrate on the game

[/ QUOTE ]


If you have to use qualifiers to justify the times you aren't playing well at the nano/micr-limits then you possibly SHOULDN'T be moving up.

It seems that you actually get tilted some playing for even such small stakes.


Do you even have a solid win-rate at these super-small limits??

I don't think that moving up to 'prove' yourself is the best philosophy.

If you are beating the lower games handily then move up.

If you are not then figure out what you are doing wrong and prove that you can actually beat these super-easy teeny games before you move up.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

My VP for .05/.10 is 19.37

for .25/.50 it's 10.45

for .10/.20 it's 16.98

These ar the levels I've played the most hands at.

Thank you also for encouraging me to read and re-read
SSHE. I used to read and study in college for tests and pretty much get it.

But I find every time I open SSHE or even the beginners book, new levels of understanding are revealed to me ( after practicing a whole bunch between readings).

So maybe that the way this learning process works. Even Ed Miller says our brains want to give up when confronted with the inconsistencies of giving and getting "bad beats", for instance.

Lady luck throws a monkey wrench into this process when we least expect it and most want it but she's in charge so far as I can see.

The more money I play for the more tilt I get. All your recommendations to play fewer tables are good to help solve this problem.

Just today I tried cutting back to 2 tables and it was a lot easier to see what I was doing and what was happening at the table.

I even started to see if I would have kept on to the river I would have won--several times--so that was an eye opener--were they long shots that came in or did I have the odds to continue (and should have).

All very helpful feedback to making positive changes in my game. It feels so good to be supported.

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
100k total up to .50/1.00

94k at .05/.10

[/ QUOTE ]
Move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely there needs to a better reason to move up than just the sheer number of hands played?

Ian

Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?
 

You're right. I've lingered way too long at this .05/.10 level. My reasons were probably misguided.

Poker has brought my feelings up to the surface--I'm a pretty low-key person usually.

If the higher tables bring on the fear and the tilt I will learn to handle it through playing fewer tables and whatever else I can figure out to do.

Thanks.