KK: Hero has no clue
 

Commerce, 9-handed, 400 NL, 5/10 Blinds

Relevant stacks/reads:

Hero: $1,300
Villain: $1,800, has been playing slightly loose and pretty reasonable postflop. Has not been caught bluffing and I don't suspect he has bluffed in any large pots.

Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG folds, Hero makes it 40, 6 of 7 call. If you don't believe me, ask Private Joker.

Flop (7 players, $280): 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero bets $300, Some folds, Villain (MP) calls $300, Some more folds.

Turn (HU, $880): 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero...?

Villain likely has:

a) a five
b) a medium pocket pair and thinks I have AK
c) a flush/straight draw with two overs (on the flop)
d) absolute nonsense

If he were last to act on the flop, I wouldn't be so sure that he has a five. The fact that he smooth-called the flop with players left to act behind him makes a five more likely. Would he really smooth call here with a draw or PP when there are other players left to act? If anyone behind him has a five, that player will now almost certainly push (much of the table had deep stacks, so a push wouldn't be small potatoes), and now Villain has to fold his PP or pay a filthy price for his draw.

So, what do I do?

And is my flop bet okay?

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

I'm not a live player, but online this looks like a good spot to push

besides another K, this turn card is the best possible card for you.

edit: Oh yeah, and the flop bet is ok. Maybe some people would like $250 or something, but a bet is mandatory. Actually I like your exact number of 300 because it means a turn push is not a huge overbet.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

How many people called between you and villian?

The fewer people, the less likely he has a 5.

Also, raise more PF. Probably way more.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

$5/$10NL with a $400 buy in? YUCK!

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

Tough spot, it comes down to if he has the 5 or not. Check the turn, if he bets, try to get a read off of him. If you lead the turn, I think you have to be ready to put your stack in, you can't build a pot this big and fold.

I play in a similiar live loose 5-10 game, very deep stacks. You can make a 5-10x the BB raise and sometimes get 4-5 callers, with a big PP in EP this created to some difficult flop and even more difficult turn decisions. I tend to limp in EP with big PP and will usually limp-re-raise preflop to thin out the field.

Hope it turned out well for you.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to limp in EP with big PP and will usually limp-re-raise preflop to thin out the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

I devoted an entire thread to this exact topic. The general consensus was that I was giving up too much by attempting to limp-reraise in a passive-to-typical game. I'm still not sure where I stand.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many people called between you and villian?

The fewer people, the less likely he has a 5.

Also, raise more PF. Probably way more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three people between me and Villain. Two people behind him.

I suppose I could have raised more. Sometimes I do. On this particular hand there were enough deep stacks at the table that a larger raise probably would have been better. But I don't think I'd ever raise more than 6x the BB when first in.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
$5/$10NL with a $400 buy in? YUCK!

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't understand why people keep bashing this form of game. When you first buy-in, you're pretty much required to play disgustingly tight until you double up. Then you can loosen up depending on the other stack sizes (and player quality but the players are usually so bad that this doesn't factor into whether you should loosen up). The high blind structure is ignored by many players who play too loose, call too many raises, quickly become very shortstacked, push in with crappy hands, and rebuy. It's a great way to keep money flowing into the game.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

I don't like any of the possibilities for villain if you check. With your stack size I think you push here.

Once again we see the difficulty of playing these hands OOP.

Raise more preflop.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't understand why people keep bashing this form of game.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
When you first buy-in, you're pretty much required to play disgustingly tight until you double up.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

when i played in this i would take extra $100 chips and add them to my stack at convenient intervals

its really easy to double up this way ;-)

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

There's no good way to play aa/kk out of position as the aggressor with 6 to 7 people to act behind you. If you don't flop a set you're gonna be facing sick decisions throughout the entire hand, as your post exemplifies.

Raise to whatever amount is gonna get you 1-3 callers or simply limp it and go for the limp reraise.

This is a disgusting spot. Given your description of villian as loose but decent after the flop, I probably bet an amount on the turn the leaves me a way out of the hand without giving him too cheap a look at the river. I'm thinking around $500 and folding to a push. Of course, if villian is smart and thinks you're capable of folding a big pair here, then I'm more likely to call the push since he knows you can't have a 5 raising like that in EP and may try to push his draw representing the 5.

You may just have to lose alot of chips here. Oh well.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$5/$10NL with a $400 buy in? YUCK!

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't understand why people keep bashing this form of game. When you first buy-in, you're pretty much required to play disgustingly tight until you double up. Then you can loosen up depending on the other stack sizes (and player quality but the players are usually so bad that this doesn't factor into whether you should loosen up). The high blind structure is ignored by many players who play too loose, call too many raises, quickly become very shortstacked, push in with crappy hands, and rebuy. It's a great way to keep money flowing into the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much the opposite strategy you should employ. If the blinds and antes (in hold em's case, just blinds) are large relative to your stack (this case of 40bb qualifies). Then you should actually loosen your starting hand requirements and steal alot. This is str8 out of Theory of Poker.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$5/$10NL with a $400 buy in? YUCK!

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't understand why people keep bashing this form of game. When you first buy-in, you're pretty much required to play disgustingly tight until you double up. Then you can loosen up depending on the other stack sizes (and player quality but the players are usually so bad that this doesn't factor into whether you should loosen up). The high blind structure is ignored by many players who play too loose, call too many raises, quickly become very shortstacked, push in with crappy hands, and rebuy. It's a great way to keep money flowing into the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much the opposite strategy you should employ. If the blinds and antes (in hold em's case, just blinds) are large relative to your stack (this case of 40bb qualifies). Then you should actually loosen your starting hand requirements and steal alot. This is str8 out of Theory of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is straight out of TOP, but you have to take into account the game flow. If it's really loose (and live), people will generally look you up more - making your bluffs more susceptible to being called down.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$5/$10NL with a $400 buy in? YUCK!

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't understand why people keep bashing this form of game. When you first buy-in, you're pretty much required to play disgustingly tight until you double up. Then you can loosen up depending on the other stack sizes (and player quality but the players are usually so bad that this doesn't factor into whether you should loosen up). The high blind structure is ignored by many players who play too loose, call too many raises, quickly become very shortstacked, push in with crappy hands, and rebuy. It's a great way to keep money flowing into the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much the opposite strategy you should employ. If the blinds and antes (in hold em's case, just blinds) are large relative to your stack (this case of 40bb qualifies). Then you should actually loosen your starting hand requirements and steal alot. This is str8 out of Theory of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

The passage from ToP to which you refer pertains primarily to limit play where you MUST loosen up in a game with a large blind structure to prevent from being overcharged by the antes/blinds. However, in NL (where you make most of your money on your implied odds as opposed to the preflop equity of a hand), you're only playing two-street poker so it's best to get involved with hands that stand to be ahead preflop and on the flop. This is str8 out of GSiH.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't understand why people keep bashing this form of game.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
When you first buy-in, you're pretty much required to play disgustingly tight until you double up.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I come from a limit background where tight play is the standard. In a game where I only need to START tight and actually get the chance to play crap when I have enough chips...well...it's like a carnival for me.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is misquoted out of Theory of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is misquoted out of Theory of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. I did not quote it exactly. Please explain to me why it is incorrect to loosen up your starting hand requirements in NL when the blinds are large compared to stack sizes.

One sentence answers help no one.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
One sentence answers help no one.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes they do.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain to me why it is incorrect to loosen up your starting hand requirements in NL when the blinds are large compared to stack sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I answered this two posts ago.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is misquoted out of Theory of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. I did not quote it exactly. Please explain to me why it is incorrect to loosen up your starting hand requirements in NL when the blinds are large compared to stack sizes.

One sentence answers help no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

When the blinds get large, you are getting better pot odds, and you don't need to win quite as often to be +EV due to the dead money. With 40BB stacks, you're getting 1.0375:1 to get all your money in heads-up with someone. This means you must win more than 49.07975% of the time to show a profit. And your opponent will be the one with the best hand out of your nine opponents.

If you want to see large blinds in NL, try some SNGs. Then you can move in with K8o and stuff.

edited to add: the reason it is misquoted is because you are taking a passage which specifically discusses playing limit holdem with antes and applying it to NL holdem played with blinds. In the original context, the size of the preflop bet remains constant while the pot size changes based upon the size of the antes. In NL, *you* are the one that decides what odds to give yourself to pick up the pot preflop. As the size of the blinds change, so do the size of the preflop bets. A PSR is laying you pretty lousy odds to pick up the pot no matter how big or small the blinds are.

Re: KK: Hero has no clue
 

I love how this thread has nothing to do with the hand that was posted.

Keep up the good work gentlemen.