QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

I thought this player was solid and was actually looking to boat up on the river. I think I might have folded even if the river wasn't such a crappy card.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.66 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.83 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

River: (8.83 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.83 BB

- Jim

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

not saying its right or wrong cause wtf do I know...but why no flop C/R?

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

I like it, it looks like he has something in the idea of AK or JJ. He raised preflop, and just called your donk bet on the flop. Then raises the turn when the jack hits. Smells like a big hand to me This river card sucks but it mighta helped, as you MAY (even though you said you wouldnt) call a bet if the river is a total blank

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

Flop CR works too, but I had him as solid. I wanted him to raise if he had a piece or an over pair on a draw heavy board so I could kick him in the jimmy.

- Jim

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this player was solid and was actually looking to boat up on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does "solid" mean he has to have you beat on the turn? I like a flop check-raise better- there's plenty of hands he could have on the flop where he won't raise your bet.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

While I don't think u are good here very often, it is not impossible for MP to have KQ or AQ. I think it's worth a call.

SGS

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

[ QUOTE ]
While I don't think u are good here very often, it is not impossible for MP to have KQ or AQ. I think it's worth a call.

SGS

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Depending on the player he could also have AJ/KJ.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted him to raise if he had a piece or an over pair on a draw heavy board so I could kick him in the jimmy


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, While I don't think the river card was good for you I would call here and look him up just to make sure his solid image he isn't taking for granted. Plus your hand still does win against AJ and KJ like hands

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

The villian could be raising the turn with almost anything. Any pair, including baby pockets, could be raised here.

I think that his range on the river that warrants a call is very limited. I don't think that many people will be betting this river with KQ or AQ after they raised the turn. If they had KQ or AQ they probably raised the turn figuring that they had put their last bet into this pot.

I still think that it is a tough fold though.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that many people will be betting this river with KQ or AQ after they raised the turn. If they had KQ or AQ they probably raised the turn figuring that they had put their last bet into this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

not true. AK or KQ raises the turn thinking they have the best hand... they'll definitely be betting again on the river.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

It would be a mistake for the Villain to raise the turn AQ/KQ and bet the river again. This isn't the point that wheelz is making though.

Who is turn-raising with AQ/KQ and also betting the river? I am assuming it is not the line that many 2plus2er's are taking. The player in this hand is solid. How many solid players are taking the turn-raise, river-bet line? I don't think many are. I don't think that you are folding out better hands and I don't think the value bet is very good.
Keep in mind that that the villian probably views the hero as a decent player.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

Jim,

I do not like the river fold.

Here is why. Once you bet on the turn, knowing that you will be raised by AK, JJ, and AA/KK/QQ; and might be raised by AQ or KQ, then you need to be prepared to call the river for one more bet. Looking at it another way: He raises the turn with AQ, or AQh or AJh (or semibluff with AJo), and then you call and check the river. Why would he not continue with a bet? They always will in my experience. Laying it down is wrong on the river, even with the terrible 5.

Mark

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

The turn and the river both look bad. But can you really say that you are not ahead more than 10% of the time? Maybe...

but if you thought villain was looking to boat up on the river, you should have probably folded to the raise on the turn. I think you thought that after the fact to justify your fold.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who is turn-raising with AQ/KQ and also betting the river? I am assuming it is not the line that many 2plus2er's are taking.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow, you really really assumed wrong.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that many people will be betting this river with KQ or AQ after they raised the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they will, its called a value bet.

-ActionBob

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

Your AQ hand, where you folded TP to a turn c/r, seemed like you were beat rather than outplayed. But folding this river for 1 bet seems like your taking this great laydown stuff to an extreme.

I go back to what Ed Miller wrote about the effect and severity of your mistakes. I think calling this river is at best a small one in the long run and I'd make it every time.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

You need to call this river, you'll find KQ/AQ enough to make it profitable at nearly 10:1.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

This line seems perfect for KQ as well as AQ, this is an EASY river call given the size of the pot. I also like going for a c/r on the flop b/c you've got a powerful hand and you can trap both players for 2 bets

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who is turn-raising with AQ/KQ and also betting the river? I am assuming it is not the line that many 2plus2er's are taking.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, you really really assumed wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQ and AQ are raising either the flop or the turn almost every time. The way the hand played out, a reasonable villain is value betting this river with either of these hands every time.

I would probably slow down and just call down after the turn raise (unless I fill up) because AK is a very distinct possibility.

However, due to AQ and KQ possibilities, folding this river can't be correct here. If the river didn't counterfeit your two pair vs AA and KK, a river check/raise/fold might even be better.

Re: QTs in the BB. Ugly River.
 

If you put yourself in the villians situation. When he raises a decent player on the turn and gets called; does he really believe that the river is a value bet. IMO he will rarely get better hands to fold, and he isn't beating much when he is called on the river.