I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

I have an irrational fear of being weak-tight and my defense mechanism for this is to go into super passive calling mode for better or for worse. Here are two 15/30 hands from last night:

Hand #1:
8-handed, folded to me in the CO and I raise A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. My image at his table is utter [censored]. I have been getting a nice stream of premium hands pre-flop but have not shown down any winners in a while. I get 3-bet by the button who is not aggro but is probably sick of me raising and might be coming after me light.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I check and call.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check and call.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check and the BB bets.... ugg.

I beat nothing at this point. Easy fold without a good read?


Hand #2
Same game, next orbit, I open in the CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and get 3-bet by the BB who seems like a reasonable player but again might be sick of my raise-fest which appears to be full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB bets, I call.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB bets....

Just fold the flop? That doesn't seem right, but I might have 0-3 outs. Raising the turn would be nice in a perfect world but my image is such crap that I think the odds of me getting AK/AQ to fold is zero. Easy muck on the turn? Pot is kind of small and all that.

Ugg. I hate getting 3-bet pre-flop. That throws me off more than anything else for some reason.

Thanks in advance,
-tpir

addendum: B Dibs has suggested to me in private that I might be over-thinking my image and I would like to concede that this might be true... but my PFR was seriously like 40% for a few orbits.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

Hand 1, I just raise the flop and move on from there, if at some point you think you're beat, I'd fold. This one seems like it hinges a lot on your read on him.

Hand 2 I fold the turn.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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Hand 2 I fold the turn.

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Anyone just fold the flop against a non-aggro? I mean how much equity do I really have here vs. a regular dude's 3-betting range?

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

i cap the first one preflop, often i'd cap the second one too. having just called, in hand 1 i c/r the flop and go from there, hand 2 i fold the turn.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

Your open raise in Hand 1 looks like a steal or semi-steal, so he doesn't have to be giving you credit for a hand as big as AQ, especially since he's sick of you raising.

When you say there's nothing you can beat, I think your range is too narrow. I'd also grant him hands like KQ/AJ/AT, etc. The river is a call. But I'd prefer you checkraised the flop and took control of the aggression.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

Donk the flop in Hand#1 and 3-bet a raise. I guess the BB called 2 cold?!?!

Hand #2 fold the turn.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

I cap both hands preflop.

Given that you didn't, I bet/3-bet the flop in hand #1 and drop on the flop in hand #2.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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Donk the flop in Hand#1 and 3-bet a raise. I guess the BB called 2 cold?!?!

Hand #2 fold the turn.

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Both hands were HU. And I don't understand what 3-betting the flop accomplishes. What range of hands from a regular old non-aggro dude are 3-betting me pre-flop and raising me on the flop that I am still beating?

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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I cap both hands preflop.

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I would certainly like to hear more about this. Are you capping with AJ to steal on garbage flops? Because I can't imagine AJ is doing very well against this dude's 3-betting range.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

Wow, where the hell is AggroHushPoster when you need him. Seriously, easy cap both PF. Especially if they think you steal light. As played, c/r the flop in hand 1. It's a lot easier to play from there.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

Since you said:

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I get 3-bet by the button who is not aggro but is probably sick of me raising and might be coming after me light. ..... I check and the BB bets.... ugg.

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I figured the BB called 2 cold or something not reading the action clearly. Check/call is fine.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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c/r the flop in hand 1. It's a lot easier to play from there.

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I hear this a lot too. Unfortunately people are 3-betting that flop with AK and 99 so all I have done is outplay myself into folding the turn.

I am not a fan of any line that involves me folding top pair heads-up.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

oops. sorry about that. that's what i get for trying to jam two hands into the same thread.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

If they threebet the flop call down.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

IMO when BB 3 bets, it is usually meaningful. When button 3 bets vs CO raise, it is much less meaningful, it quite often is to get the pot HU, especially given what you mentioned about having a very loose table image. Button 3 betting range could be 88+, AK-AJ,A9s+, KQs or unsuited.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

I think you are giving the 3-bettors way too much credit. There is no way they are just 99-AA and AQs+. You need to throw in a ton more hands in steal situations.

Hand 1 I either bet, 3bet or c/r. Favoring a c/r.

Hand 2 - cap preflop. How you played it I fold the turn.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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Hand 2 I fold the turn.

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Anyone just fold the flop against a non-aggro? I mean how much equity do I really have here vs. a regular dude's 3-betting range?

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Tpir, against a "non-aggro" folding the flop in hand 2 would be the standard play since the probability you are drawing to 3 outs is now too high when compared to the odds you are getting to draw to a pair. Against a more aggressive opponent the probability that you have 6 outs go up, and the probability that you have the best hand goes up thus making a flop peal correct IMO. And against a super aggressive opponent, you should be taking this hand to the river every time and calling whether you improve or not.

I want to talk about Hand 1 now. When you flop top pair in this situation, whether you should call down or play back by checkraising the flop or bet/3betting depends on what kind of range you put the villain on. Naturally the tighter your opponents 3 betting range, the more likely calling down will be the correct strategy. For instance if you put your opponent on a tight range like: TT-AA,AK, and you flop top pair then you should just call down, since if you play back at your opponent youre too likely to end up getting raised back by a better hand that has you drawing thin, or you may induce your opponent to fold a 2 outer, which is also bad for you. In this example checking and calling all the way(and maybe betting the river if your opponent never bluffraises) is the line that will make you the most money or save you the most money in the long run.

However in your hand you raised from the CO, and the Button reraised you, in this situation with no read, you should assume that the button's 3 betting range is now not nearly as tight since he may be putting you on a steal.

In this situation with no reads I would tentatively put the button on this hand range: 77-AA,AK,AQ,AJ,ATs,KQ,KJs. Against this range the probability of you running into a stronger hand is now much lower, and most importantly the probability that the button now has a second best hand that pays you off all the way is much higher.

If you checkraise the flop the villain is likely to pay you off all the way with a hand like KJs,AJ,KQ. Also if the villain has a hand like ATs or AK on this QJx flop, he'll likely go to the river and then fold unimproved.

Now if you play back by checkraising the flop you still face the problem of running into a better hand or inducing your opponent to fold a 2 outer, but you will make enough money from the second best hands/draws that call you down to more than make up for it. So in your hand example on the QJx flop, I would checkraise the flop. But if you had raised UTG and a solid player 3 bet you from any position, I would just call down.

So the tighter your opponents 3 betting range the more apt you should be to just check and call all the way down when you flop something like top pair with a hand like AQ, but the wider your opponent's 3 betting range the more likely you should take an aggressive action to get more money in the pot becuz the odds of him having a second best hand that will pay off all the way goes up.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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c/r the flop in hand 1. It's a lot easier to play from there.

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I hear this a lot too. Unfortunately people are 3-betting that flop with AK and 99 so all I have done is outplay myself into folding the turn.

I am not a fan of any line that involves me folding top pair heads-up.

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This is likely the problem. I wouldn't even think of folding in hand 1 if you check raise and get 3 bet? You're giving your opponent *way* too much credit here.

-ActionBob

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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c/r the flop in hand 1. It's a lot easier to play from there.

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I hear this a lot too. Unfortunately people are 3-betting that flop with AK and 99 so all I have done is outplay myself into folding the turn.

I am not a fan of any line that involves me folding top pair heads-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is likely the problem. I wouldn't even think of folding in hand 1 if you check raise and get 3 bet? You're giving your opponent *way* too much credit here.

-ActionBob

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Believe me, I had no intention of folding... but that is why I am arguing against getting too aggressive because this seems like a pretty standard way ahead/way behind situation, yes/no?

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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I cap both hands preflop.

Given that you didn't, I bet/3-bet the flop in hand #1 and drop on the flop in hand #2.

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I agree with everything jason has said except I don't like capping preflop in hand 2.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

dam that was a good post

Re: sults
 

Thanks for all of the responses. I am still trying to find that magical balance between giving too much action and not giving enough. Clearly these hands were on the "not enough" end of the specturm [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Maybe I will post some hands where I gave my opponent no credit and unloaded bets like a clown.

Anyway, I thought about folding the river in hand #1 for a little and called and got shown AK. Sweet.

I folded the turn in hand #2 and my opponent did not show.

Thanks again and have a good holiday,
tpir

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

If you are scared of being weak tight rather than call down be the one raising. Preflop in hand one was a great way of doing this.

I would have cappped preflop then taken it from there. Had i called i would have bet 3 bet the flop, he calls. turn he calls. river: T and i would betfold.

Hand 2 i do not cap and would fold the flop.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

There was a really good post in HUSH about capping light in shorthanded situations, that I have been applying more lately. In hand 1, you do not have position so I just call, and maybe take WA/WB line? It seems against this type of opponent it is not rare to see him take control with 99 or AK, or a splitting AQ against your goosey image. However, I don't know play 15/30 party.

In hand 2, I lean toward capping since it will generally have a greater affect on getting villain to make mistakes postflop. I can't decide whether this affect is more relevant against a good villain or a bad villain.

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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There was a really good post in HUSH about capping light in shorthanded situations, that I have been applying more lately. In hand 1, you do not have position so I just call, and maybe take WA/WB line? It seems against this type of opponent it is not rare to see him take control with 99 or AK, or a splitting AQ against your goosey image. However, I don't know play 15/30 party.

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I think hand #1 is a pretty easy cap against the likely 3-betting range but I am a little over-sensitive to being OOP and I just defaulted to a WA/WB line.

If anyone had a link or a lead for the mentioned HUSH thread that would be cool. I did a few searches but could not come up with anything.

Thanks and have a good holiday,
tpir

Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet
 

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If you are scared of being weak tight rather than call down be the one raising.

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My problem with this is that against more aggro people I don't want to open up a spot where I can get outplayed on the turn if 99 decides to raise me.

It's hard for me to know if my bigger problem is calling down too much or not getting in enough bets when I am winning.