TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

Nice loose table. UTG+1, MP1 and CO are loose and not good. Button is a good TAG, maybe 2+2, his numbers are around 17/11/2.5 over a few hundred hands. From what I've seen, he is not particularly tricky.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (11.40 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button calls.

When the button raised, I put him on a nine, a set, or a flush draw. Two pair is near impossible on this board, and overpairs are unlikely because of the pre-flop action. He didn't cap, which could mean he thinks he's behind, or it could mean he's waiting to pop me on the turn.

Turn: (10.20 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Thoughts on the check? The flush comes in and the board pairs. I've got a club, but that may not matter.

River: (12.20 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero...

I'm especially interested in the turn and river, but comments on any streets are appreciated.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

I would bet the turn call a raise and throw up on the river.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

This is a tough spot, but I think I would bet/fold the turn and check/call the river.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

ok the blinds must be semi-retarded but hey. I bet/fold the turn and clarkmeister the river!

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

I like check/call the turn
check/call the river . . .

you are probably going to lose but you are getting 13:1 on the river call so I'd take the risk

EDIT: Actually Bet/Fold the turn may be better. It saves you 1bb when you are behind from my above suggestion.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

Clarkmeister??

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

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Clarkmeister??

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bet the river when HU OOP and the board is 4-flushed regardless of your hand. i actually dont think its a good spot for this and i would probably c/c because the board is paired and its hard to fold to a raise with the T-flush.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

I think I'd bet/fold the turn and check/fold the river. From your description, Villian knows better than to try to bluff.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

For those who like bet/folding the turn...

Is there any fear of a free shodown raise? Or a semibluff raise with (for instance) a nine and a club?

Like I said, the villain didn't seem particularly tricky, but I think these are things any good TAG will do at least once in a while.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

I think the turn and river are both close decisions, and it's hard to fault folding the turn when it pairs the board and makes a 3 flush. Then again it's likely you did initiate his bet by checking.

The river is not a place to Clakmeister. Here you likely HAVE the best hand, but don't like to see a raise. Villian has been betting the whole way, and if he checks through the river chances are 1) you have him beat and 2) he was not calling a river bet anyhow. For that reason I like a check/call line on the river.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

If you bet/fold the turn. what do you do on the river if he just calls your turn bet???

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

Preflop and flop are perfect.

Turn I would bet/ fold to raise.

River im check/calling if I get there.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

Betting the river here would not be a Clarkmeister.

You need to have been the aggressor on the previous street.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]

For those who like bet/folding the turn...

Is there any fear of a free shodown raise? Or a semibluff raise with (for instance) a nine and a club?

Like I said, the villain didn't seem particularly tricky, but I think these are things any good TAG will do at least once in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I don't really agree that raising with those types of hands would be correct, I do see TAG's doing those kinds of plays all the time and I certainly think bet/call should be an option on the turn against some opponents.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

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check/call the river . . .

you are probably going to lose (if he bets) but you are getting 13:1 on the river call so I'd take the risk


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On the turn you can save a bb by folding to a raise (assuming we don't know the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is coming) . . . however after we bet if he calls . . . check/call will still be a good play 13:1 on the T high flush river

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

Does anyone else think that the Button's hand smells like a flopped set?

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

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Betting the river here would not be a Clarkmeister.

You need to have been the aggressor on the previous street.

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No. Previous action is irrelevant.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

Bet/folding the turn is really bad IMO.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

Hmm... shows how much I know.

I could have sworn that having the lead on the previous street was a requirement, at least I'm pretty sure that is what has been preached in the forum for as long as I can remember.

I seem to remember Jason responding in a recent post that that was a requirement. Here it is.

Can anybody explain the requirements to me? I've also noticed a number of threads recently in MUSH I think that have questioned the value of the theory.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

After looking through a bunch of previous posts on the subject, it seems like there is no consensus and a lot of confusion. Having the lead on the previous street is mentioned as a requirement sometimes, and sometimes it is not. There's also a lot of disagreement about other facets of the play. Interesting.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

With his ordinary TAG numbers, I reason along these lines; with the preflop cold call it's quite obvious that he has either a PP (perhaps 99) or two big suited cards. His flop raise confirms this, at that point he most definitely has either a set or a club flush draw with like AJs-QJs (I don't see him cold call two bets preflop with a smaller suited connector). When he just calls the 3-bet it smells flush draw, but since it's HU he could still have a set, waiting to pop the turn.

The three of clubs really either gives him a boat or complete a flush, and again, as I don't see him cold call two bets with smaller clubs preflop, a fourth club on the river won't bail us out. And against a set we're drawing dead.

This is a really easy bet/fold, the question is what to do if he just calls. If he just calls, it could either mean he has a made flush and is afraid of us having a full house, or he is slowplaying. But even if we're certainly beat I still have a hard time folding for one additional bet, so I believe a check/call on the river is in order.

So, bet/fold the turn, and check/call the river.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

I just realized that if Button has a made flush on the turn, then we actually have 4 outs to make a full house. So perhaps we should bet/call instead and check/fold UI; or, if it sucks that much being raised on the turn when we have outs to improve, perhaps a check/call is better.

Intuitively, I'd still bet/fold, but I don't know what's best anymore. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

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Intuitively, I'd still bet/fold

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no no, no.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

Isn't this a textbook wait for the turn situation? By 3-betting the flop, we're offering anyone with 4 or so outs the chance to correctly see the turn, and consequently the river. Furthermore, our equity changes drastically on the turn, depending on what card falls. Seems standard to me, and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up. Thoughts?

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

Those of you that are saying bet/fold the turn, you know we have an overpair and a flushdraw, right? I would bet/call the turn and check/call the river if raised. It looks like button was on a flushdraw that hit, but I don't want to give a freecard to A9 on the turn.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

*grunch*

Your 2+2 TAG either made a hand on the flop, in which case he practically never has a better club or he pumped a draw which came in and was counterfeited (which also rarely has a better club).

He didn't cap the flop (already headsup) and all he did on the turn is bet a hand where you inexplicably slowed down (which I think happens with any 2 headsup).

The only hands you're afraid of here are 33, 43s, 99 (maybe), and A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9o. Everything else looks real peculiar to me.

I bet/call this river. I would have rather raised on the turn, though. You had redraws against the flush and even the boat and there was a pretty fair chance you were ahead.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

I think you're all missing villain's AF of 2.5 and intrepreting *Button* action as a monster. Don't you think AJs and even QJs would have found a PF 3-bet at this table?

99 is on the bubble, but why not cap the flop? After the flop raise you can't be sure the PFR is going to keep betting, especially if a scare card hits.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

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I think I'd bet/fold the turn and check/fold the river. From your description, Villian knows better than to try to bluff.

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All right, after reevaluating this hand, I can see why bet/fold on the turn is bad. A bet/call is definitely better.

Is the river a check/call or a bet/call, though?

I'll admit, I'm a little unsure about the line on this hand now.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

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I just realized that if Button has a made flush on the turn, then we actually have 4 outs to make a full house.

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This is a very good point and bears repetition. Those extra two outs get overlooked sometimes.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just realized that if Button has a made flush on the turn, then we actually have 4 outs to make a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good point and bears repetition. Those extra two outs get overlooked sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also note that you have 2 outs to counterfeit a turned full house.

I think too much credit is being given to a tight and aggressive player who limped and not enough value is being assigned to this hand.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this a textbook wait for the turn situation? By 3-betting the flop, we're offering anyone with 4 or so outs the chance to correctly see the turn, and consequently the river. Furthermore, our equity changes drastically on the turn, depending on what card falls. Seems standard to me, and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not, because we probably won't be in a position to protect our hand on the turn. The flush draw takes up a large portion of the villain's hand range, and so we can't risk giving a free card if the turn does come up clubless.

Also, even if we were willing to take this risk, if our villain has a lone nine (which is what we're hoping he has), a lot of cards could come to scare him off of betting.

So the flop 3-bet is likely the only chance at protection hero is going to have this hand.

Results
 

River goes check-check and MHIG. Button had 9s7s.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not, because we probably won't be in a position to protect our hand on the turn. The flush draw takes up a large portion of the villain's hand range, and so we can't risk giving a free card if the turn does come up clubless.

Also, even if we were willing to take this risk, if our villain has a lone nine (which is what we're hoping he has), a lot of cards could come to scare him off of betting.

So the flop 3-bet is likely the only chance at protection hero is going to have this hand.


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Yeah, all true. Thanks for that. I should've paid closer attention to villain's range.

Re: TT vs.a small army of coldcallers
 

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Intuitively, I'd still bet/fold

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no no, no.

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What I meant was that I'd probably do that in the heat of the battle myself, not that it's a good play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I won't do it in the future anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]