KK turns ugly.
 

Villain is LAG (48/17/3) - not a great player, but not too bad for 50NL

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($89.10)
BB ($57.95)
UTG ($56.32)
MP ($51)
Hero ($89.80)
Button ($95.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $3, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($6.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $6</font>, UTG calls $6.

Turn: ($18.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Kcova20000 checks.
Hero bets $17, Kcova20000 raises $34, Hero...?

easy fold right?

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

Would you fold A9 here? Your hand isn't that much better.......

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

That's an excellent perspective many people don't see hands like this from.

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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That's an excellent perspective many people don't see hands like this from.

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Can you please explain why... I can't see it. Are you saying that KK here is same as QQ or JJ or TT or even A9? and why?

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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That's an excellent perspective many people don't see hands like this from.

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Can you please explain why... I can't see it. Are you saying that KK here is same as QQ or JJ or TT or even A9? and why?

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That's exactly what I'm saying. Villain is telling you he can crush A9. Well what hands in villain's range that crush A9 are you beating with KK? Unless you have a read that villain overplays top pair hands (which is probably the note he now has on you), then a fold is your only option here.

TPTK hands are solid hands, but I am very hesitant to throw my stack in with them after the flop. Pre-flop with KK I am never folding, post-flop you have to be able to get away from them, especially after you have told villain your holding and he has responded that he doesn't care.

People bluff a lot less frequently then you think at these levels. Their biggest mistake is thinking their hand is stronger than it really is, but that is not the same thing as a bluff.

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

I see what you mean... &amp; agree.

But could he not have TT, JJ or QQ with a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? His line is consistent with that... (sort of)

Also, What would you do here if one of you Kings was [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ?

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

How 'bout a preflop raise?

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

raising is what I do 90% of the time in that spot... Was trying to mix up my play a bit.

I'm more interested about the turn play here... anyone check-folds?

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

Having the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] adds 9 more outs minus any villian may have giving you the odds to call the turn raise. Against someone playing this many hands and half our stack in already I'd be ready to get it all in on the river with a Kh flush here.

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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I see what you mean... &amp; agree.

But could he not have TT, JJ or QQ with a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? His line is consistent with that... (sort of)

Also, What would you do here if one of you Kings was [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ?

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K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a call.

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

If he is your typical LAG, he probably raised with a med PP, I would have re-raised preflop considering he could be raising with anything. What kind of hands does this guy raise with? Anyway, I wouldn't like the board pairing and having a three flush on the board. He might have raised with a hand like A8, or A9, but I find that unlikley UTG even for a LAG, I think it is more likely he raised with a Medium pocket pair or suited overcards. But I would folded the turn, facing a raise. When I go up against a LAG, I let him bet the pot for me and just call him down.

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

I would call with a KOS, it gives you nine more outs granted that you are not already drawing dead.

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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Can you please explain why... I can't see it. Are you saying that KK here is same as QQ or JJ or TT or even A9? and why? -

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(While I was at lunch 42 answered this question better than I could have, so I'll just add...)

Basically, yes. But with qualifications...

KK is a good hand, but it's never the nuts unless it improves. People often play AA and KK like they are invulnerable by slowplaying, building huge pots and setting big traps, but often when they do this they end up getting stacked. Why? Becasue unimproved KK is just one-pair.

If you have 20k+ hands in PT, take a look at your stats. How often does 1-pair win? You may be surprised to see that one-pair only wins about 33% of the time.

KK is a great one-pair hand, no doubt about it. It will beat the tar out of many hands that your opponents might be inclined to overvalue, like QQ or AK. But it's still just one-pair. Sometimes it's right to back up KK with your whole stack. But often it's not. Don't ever let yourself start thinking, "Damnit, KK is a great hand, and I'm going to win this pot with it, and I don't care that my opponent just minraised a brick."

The fact that KK is just one-pair is easier to keep in perspective if you ask yourself how you would feel about your hand if it was A9o. KK is better than A9, sure. But they're both one pair.

(Edited for clarity &amp; grammmatic stupidity)

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

You're right... I find it harder to drop KK on a low flop than drop 2 bottom pairs...

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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Also, What would you do here if one of you Kings was [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ?

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you can check behind on the turn with the K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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You're right... I find it harder to drop KK on a low flop than drop 2 bottom pairs...

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Isn't that wierd? I find it wierd, anyway. I stuggle with it to this day.

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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You're right... I find it harder to drop KK on a low flop than drop 2 bottom pairs...

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Isn't that weird? I find it weird, anyway. Many of us struggle with it every session we play.

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FYP

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

this is because KK has much better chances of improving if behind, and because bottom two pair is only beating AA and KK and so its not exactly much more powerful. holla.

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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How 'bout a preflop raise?

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Just to reinforce this. I totally skipped over the fact that hero didn't re-raise PF, but really should have.

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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this is because KK has much better chances of improving if behind, and because bottom two pair is only beating AA and KK and so its not exactly much more powerful. holla.

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Uh oh, holla has made its way into SSNL. (BTW - nice point on bottom 2-pr)

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

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How 'bout a preflop raise?

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Just to reinforce this. I totally skipped over the fact that hero didn't re-raise PF, but really should have.

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Do you NEVER cold call with AA/KK in that spot??

Re: KK turns ugly.
 

Well, you know, never say never...

But no, I generally don't. Mostly becasue I want maximum value for my hand now, preflop, while I have an equity edge. I could consider flatcalling preflop, butr I would need a specifric read on the opponent that tells me that flatcalling is more +EV than re-raising now. I think that read is pretty unusual. Like for instance, if I know he will bluff himself allin if he doesn't encounter resistance but will collapse if there's is any resistance, then I'd probably flatcall.

Against standard opponents, it's often said that a flatcall is more +EV becasue you can get more of your opponent's stack postflop if he doesn't read you for KK preflop. But I disagree. If your opponent has a hand that he's willing to go to the felt with if you don't reraise PF, he's probably willing to jettison chips with it postflop even if you do. Besides, if you flatcall PF you're going to lose your deceptive screen eventually anyway, and your opponent will still put you on KK.