QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

No reads, 1st level.

How do you handle this:
at the a) 33s and under
b) 55s or 109s
c)215s and +?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

Button (t775)
Hero (t840)
BB (t620)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t770)
MP3 (t770)
CO (t1025)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t125</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero ?

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

1) Push (this is automatic with t800 chips)
2a) $55s almost certainly push
2b) $109 push if (i) never seen CO before, or (ii) have seen him and he's a donk
3) Never played them yet, but I'd imagine the same as the $109

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

Me? I call, then check-raise all in any flop without A or K.

I also don't mini-raise ever. My guess is that the Villain is reacting to your mini-raise as much as anything else, and is trying to isolate what appears to be a loose player with a weakish hand.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

I didn't min raise.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

If the BB is 15 and you raise to 30, that's a mini-raise.

I raise probably to 80-100 here, as people will still often incorrectly call even that with small-medium pocket pairs and suited cards.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

Thanks for the lesson on min raises, should I give you a lesson on how to read a HH now?

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the BB is 15 and you raise to 30, that's a mini-raise.

I raise probably to 80-100 here, as people will still often incorrectly call even that with small-medium pocket pairs and suited cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're confused, hero is SB not UTG.

I would push in a 33 or 55.

I would push or call in a 109.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the lesson on min raises, should I give you a lesson on how to read a HH now?

[/ QUOTE ]

pwned

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

Does anyone consider folding? I don't play 33's or 55's - I can assume they are donkfests, but at the higher levels there is no reason to get tangled with as vulnerable a hand as QQ this early. I would need proper odds for hitting a set to play this on 7/15, or perhaps a sizable raise (90 or 100) and then 4 callers - in that case, and in that case only - I would push and take 400 chips, if I feel table is donkish.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

QQ vulnerable?! Wow.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

What other hands are a clear push in this same situation. What would be only a call? JJ? AK? AQ?

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

I'd definitely fold AQ. JJ and AK are both kind of meh. I'd really need to be at the table to decide on those two.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

I'm a bit of a noob with SNG, but I think a push is too aggressive here.

What's CO's range? To raise 99+, AQ+? To call a push say JJ+, AK.

That gives me 6(99)+6(TT)+8(AQ)=20 folds. 16(AK)+6(JJ)+1(QQ)+6(KK)+6(AA)=35 calls.

Of the calls I'm tying 17 (16 AK and 1 QQ), behind 12(AA,KK) ahead 6(JJ). Say we win 15/35.

EV = (860) * 15/(20+35) - for the calls by COwe win
+ (-800) * 20/(20+35) - for calls by CO we lose
+ 180 * 20/(20+35) - for the folds
= +9 T$

I haven't counted the possibilty UTG may call a push here. I like calling and pushing any non A or K flop.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

tiger, by "meh".... what would your play be if the original raiser was loose, average or tight with a hand of AK or JJ?

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
QQ vulnerable?! Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Cloutier says they used to call them "baby pairs."

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

Yes, at a level where preflop raises are not made randomly, QQ after a re-raise is a very vulnerable hand. I don't understand why a solid player would even try running a play (reraising with less than AK) on 7/15 blinds after UTG minraised. This is a clear bet to protect his big hand and build the pot, because otherwise why not just fold? There is like 50 chips in the pot - what is 125 reraise trying to steal?

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, at a level where preflop raises are not made randomly, QQ after a re-raise is a very vulnerable hand. I don't understand why a solid player would even try running a play (reraising with less than AK) on 7/15 blinds after UTG minraised. This is a clear bet to protect his big hand and build the pot, because otherwise why not just fold? There is like 50 chips in the pot - what is 125 reraise trying to steal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Buster! Have you ever played an SNG before?

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

Cloutier also didn't play too many 50-30-20 SNGs in his time I don't think -- and even still they're baby pairs for him.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

Buster, feel free to put in about 500 SNGs, and get back to us on how vulnerable QQ is here.

IC5, on a $33 I would just push, and expect to be called by AJ+, 99+. A fair amount of time, they will fold.

PS: In a situation like this, I asked a guy why he raised his pair so much, and he responded, "how else do you get A-rag out of the hand?" He had 55 btw.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

I've played a few thousand SNGs by now on Crypto (avg. buy-in around £200) and I'll be on Party in a few weeks. From my experience the only people I continuously see(over months) in my level games are the ones that play similar to me. All the others get hot for about a month or two, and then sink back to the $50-$100 levels or leave altogether.

I always thought I was a winning player b/c my opponents sucked. Now I can see the flawed logic "good" players like you attempt to use.

I commented specifically on the SNG levels I play. I have no clue what do at $33.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

Buster, after rereading your posts in this thread, I can see where you're coming from now. Given the circumstances described in OP, certainly JJ is a fold here.

Are you saying that given the pf action, at your level, only QQ+, AK makes this play? I can understand if you know villain, and you know that is his hand range, but that's another story. From reading other hand histories of higher buyin players, randoms can make this play with AQ and TT.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.
Scuba

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

There is the possibility of hands other than QQ+, but it is not great enough to risk losing my stack this early provided there are no reads(they will surface later) - in other words, in 2+2 terms, ev is negative -- when you take into account the structure of an SNG of course.

Now say the other guy does have AQ or TT. We decided we are only calling (all-in vs. even this "expanded" range is too dangerous). Where do we plan to trap him? Ace or King on the flop folds you -- though he will also continuation bet with TT and thus take us off the best hand(and value) -- only flop we are playing is non Ace or King. TT may give us action on a flop of small cards, but a good player will still be wary considering we called a re-raise - a set or overcards to his TT are very strong possibility. AQ on a Qxx flop is a stronger hand for him, but quite imporbable since we hold QQ. Only AQx or KQx flop is a true payoff (or any other set flop if he has KK or AA) - but we don't have the odds to draw to a set preflop. Otherwise, I don't see us getting much action on a favorable flop - an absolute must if this play were to be correct.

I would be appalled if the higher level Party SNG experts agree with all you "QQ on level 1" fanatics - it is a specialty hand that must be played acutely.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

What I do here will vary. It would depend on the reraiser. btw it goes without saying that if the reraiser is a known moron, that I will reraise. If the reraiser is a known tightplayer I will likely fold as in this case I think that reraising is hugely -EV. Although I get the sense that people here have trouble understnading just how tight some guys are early on in the $215, when it comes to their reraising and raising standards.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

curtains wouldnt a call be better with QQ?? I mean the odds for a set are there.
Anyway on the 33s I would push and on the 55s I would reraise to 300( only due to the 200 extra chips).

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

valenzuela if the odds for a set woould be there why wouldnt I call with 22? Anyway calling is okay too, I am just very weak tight.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

If im sure that:
1)My oponent has AA/KK/AK
2)Every time I hit a set and he has AA/KK he will give me his stack.
3)Every time he has AK and fails to get a pair he will check the flop after I check it.
4)He will never check the flop with AA/KK after I check it.

Then of course Im calling with 22.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

I wouldn't call with 22 for sure. Cmon there is still soeone else in the hand that can reraise. I think calling with 22, even with your above conditions, would be a pretty terrible play in a sit and go.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cmon there is still soeone else in the hand that can reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]
ehhh...got me there. Im still not folding QQ though

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If im sure that:
1)My oponent has AA/KK/AK
2)Every time I hit a set and he has AA/KK he will give me his stack.
3)Every time he has AK and fails to get a pair he will check the flop after I check it.
4)He will never check the flop with AA/KK after I check it.

Then of course Im calling with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet list of conditions dude ever managed to get all of those going at once at the table?

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If im sure that:
1)My oponent has AA/KK/AK
2)Every time I hit a set and he has AA/KK he will give me his stack.
3)Every time he has AK and fails to get a pair he will check the flop after I check it.
4)He will never check the flop with AA/KK after I check it.

Then of course Im calling with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you wasting your time posting your great advice on 2+2 when you could be making millions of dollars in sngs?

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cmon there is still soeone else in the hand that can reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]
ehhh...got me there. Im still not folding QQ though

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont worry, no one in the world would blame you for not folding QQ. I am the one who is making the "weird play" by folding it occasionally to 2 raises early on against a tight 2nd raiser.

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

We're arguing with $33 players. What's the point? Its unfathomable to even think about folding QQ preflop for them - they're useless in discussion. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: QQ Preflop: How does the buy in determine how you play this hand?
 

Im not really arguing...Im saying that if you never folded QQ in this spot, I wouldn't blame you.