Is this a Leak?How to fix?
 

Lately, both live and online, I've been losing extra bets to check raises or raises on the RIVER when I value bet WHEN IT IS HU. Typical example is when I have AA or TPTK and board is not too scary....no obvious straights or flushes i.e. say I have AA and board is KJ754 or something like that. So I bet the river and it gets raised or cr by lone opponent. I have been calling even though I think I lost bc I don't want my opponent to walk over me. I think most people will agree that when you've raised preflop and/or on the flop and you bet all the way and still get raised on the river, your opponent is very unlikely bluffing assuming he is a typical player.

So my question is this: is calling that raise a leak in my game? I know some replies will be along the lines of "depending on your read of the situation and the board , you should fold" but I think that no matter what the board is (if I have AA and the board is as inocuous as K9732 rainbow), you hardly ever have the best hand if u get raised.
The other "solution" is to not value bet the river. I am quite aggressive when it is HU so I tend to bet on the river most of the time even if a 3rd flush card hits.For example, if I have AA and board is KcQc7s6s4c, I will still bet the river, but if it was KcQc9s7sTc, then I wouldn't bet. I think it is the right thing to do, but I welcome any advice.

Assuming you are talking about limit
 

Regularly folding good hands on the river for one bet in a large pot is one of the biggest mistakes one can make....

Re: Assuming you are talking about limit
 

yes I am talking about limit.

I'm not sure why this question isnt generating any responses. I'm sure it's a situation that arises for many players. I and most players I see, simply pay off in the end but I hardly ever see the crying call take down the pot.

Re: Assuming you are talking about limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regularly folding good hands on the river for one bet in a large pot is one of the biggest mistakes one can make....

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. However, assuming the player is not a complete donkey, I usually don't have a problem check calling the river HU. You might induce a bluff from a missed draw, especially online.

Re: Assuming you are talking about limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hardly ever see the crying call take down the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's correct. Say the pot is laying you 20:1, you'd only have to win it 5% of the time to break even. And thats why you don't see them taking the pot down that much when they make this "crying call".

Re: Assuming you are talking about limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regularly folding good hands on the river for one bet in a large pot is one of the biggest mistakes one can make....

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Folding is probably the worst thing you could do. You have to be right a lot of the time to make that a profitable play. Observant opponents will start getting tricky with you, thinking you'll lay down on the river to a raise. So no, calling that raise isn't a leak.

I used to have the same problem....TPTK, relatively harmless board...I bet...."Rrrrrraiiiiise" from the calling station...rivered his weak kicker for two pair, whatever. In low limit, value betting the river is where the money is. I suppose you could tighten your requirements for value betting the river, but hey, s#$% happens with LL players. But just because you get raised doesn't mean your hand isn't good.

ScottieK

Re: Assuming you are talking about limit
 

In general, value betting is a much better play than trying to induce a bluff.

Re: Assuming you are talking about limit
 

I'm not sure I agree with this statement in the OP's case.

If you are C/R on turn or raised on the river, after having shown
strength the whole way, by a passive player - you are beaten.

-ZEN

Re: Assuming you are talking about limit
 

If it's 20:1, of course you call the raise. On the other hand, if it's a typical online HU game, then it could be like a raise and a call before the flop, a bet and a call on the flop, a bet and a call on the turn, and a bet and raise on the river. Now, that's about 8:1 odds, you have to right more than 11% to be break even. Sometimes I fold my top pair facing an opponent who doesn't raise with top pair on the river.

Re: Assuming you are talking about limit
 

That's why you have to consider the size of the pot. If the pot is small tend to fold - if it large tend to call.

In addition, if you are checkraised in the turn you need to determine what your outs are and if you have the odds to continue.

Re: Assuming you are talking about limit
 

and obviously your read is important here too.

even just the 'stats' on your opponent without a read can do the trick.

If your opponent has stats that he is pretty darned tight on the river then you can go ahead and be more likely to let it go if the pot is something less than huge.

If your opponent has previously been raising rivers and induced a couple folds from you or opponents (or showing-down hands that weren't THAT great) than you are obviously going to be more willing to call it down.


I disagree that this isn't discussed though.
These types of 'my opponent C/R'ed me on the river' type of hands come up in the strategy forums all the time.


post a specific hand and your read of the opponent/situation and perhaps you'll get some feedback as to whether your call-down or fold was a good idea.

Re: Is this a Leak?How to fix?
 

ok so sometimes if villain is really aggressive just check/call to induce bets from more hands than they call with. but if your opponent is passive then value bet. when you get raised and if you think that the arent bluffing think about HOW SURE YOU ARE then compare it with the size of the potand if the pot is big enough to cover the times when you lose on bet vs when you win the whole pot you need to call.

This is why you call.
 

Villian was x/5/0.66 over about 50 hands.

LordBass posts the small blind of $.50.
Apocalypse posts the big blind of $1.

hicherbie: -- --
LordBass: Js Jc
Apocalypse: -- --
NashBC: -- --
Teddy41: -- --
moleratking: -- --
eldinko: -- --
TzuDevil: -- --
chips4me: -- --
chip_daddy: -- --

Pre-flop:

NashBC calls. Teddy41 calls. moleratking folds.
eldinko folds. TzuDevil folds. chips4me folds.
chip_daddy raises to $2. hicherbie folds. LordBass
re-raises to $3. Apocalypse folds. NashBC folds.
Teddy41 calls. chip_daddy re-raises to $4. LordBass
calls. Teddy41 calls.

Flop (board: 5c Ts 9d):

LordBass bets $1. Teddy41 calls. chip_daddy calls.


Turn (board: 5c Ts 9d 6c):

LordBass bets $2. Teddy41 folds. chip_daddy calls.


River (board: 5c Ts 9d 6c 9s):

LordBass bets $2. chip_daddy raises to $4. LordBass
calls.



Showdown:

chip_daddy shows 4s 4c.
chip_daddy has 4s 4c Ts 9d 9s: two pair, nines and fours.
LordBass shows Js Jc.
LordBass has Js Jc Ts 9d 9s: two pair, jacks and nines.


Hand #10101236-6729 Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $29.
LordBass wins $28 with two pair, jacks and nines.